Episode 39: Toyotama-Hime
/You may have heard some great breakup stories in the past, but we bet you haven’t heard one as good as Toyotama-hime’s. From a gem-spitting meet cute to battling a normal sized crocodile, our radiant gem princess went through a lot. Listen as we tell the story and reminisce on past breakups, trashy werewolf romance novels, secrets as anniversary presents, divine prenups, and more!
MERCH MERCH MERCH! http://spiritspodcast.com/merch! Kinda Creepy Kinda Cool shirts and Water Spirits pins are now available for preorder. And you can still get $20 off your first order of wine at trywinc.com/spirits. CLICK THESE LINKS, y’all!
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. To read up on us, listen to us on other podcasts, or send us a note, just head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 39: Toyotama-Hime.
JS: What you don't know is Amanda did that five times before we got that take right.
AM: I think it was four. But, yeah, it, it's not my specialty pronouncing the things that we do here on the show. I bring the comic relief, the Harry Potter references, and the, you know, administration behind the scenes.
JS: I was gonna say you bring a lot more, but neither of us really bring the pronunciation.
AM: That is true, but we have other strengths. One of which apparently is, is attracting new patrons --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- to the show. We were so excited to see so many more of you join us over there. It's an amazing community. We did an extra last week on tattooing culture, tattooing mythologies, which I obviously loved a lot
JS: Of course, because you have the coolest tattoo I've ever seen in my entire life.
AM: Thank you so much. Please continue to compliment it until we are very, very old in rocking chairs.
JS: I will indeed.
AM: Awesome. But we would love to thank those who have joined us over the last two weeks: AJ, Daniel, Angelica, Jayden, Sonya, Amanda, Kevin, Ryan, Victoria, Emily, NeonGreenTiger, Nicole, Julie, Gabriel, Alec, Gianna, Carman, and Holly.
JS: Damn. That was really good.
AM: Whoo! And, as always, our supporting producers, who are the lifeblood of our show. They're the spine of our story. They're the, the arc to our hero's journey. We would love to thank LeeAnn, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Megan, Sara, Katie, Derek, Debra, and, now, Zargo. Welcome
JS: You guys are the fathom long crocodiles of our hearts, which apparently isn't that big, but you'll see in the episode.
AM: Yeah. Both, both versions of fathom apply to you. I would default to the bigger one, because we love you so much.
JS: Okay. We do.
AM: And, Jules, what do we actually drink this episode?
JS: We broke out the sake. This is a Japanese myth. So, I want to keep it, you know, like on brand a little bit. Also, sake is really good. Like chilled sake is actually one of my favorite things to drink during the summer. So --
AM: Yeah. I don't particularly care for white wine most of the time, but I will drink chilled sake all day long, which sometimes I do.
JS: Yes.
AM: And it's really good.
JS: Hell yeah.
AM: I really like it a lot.
JS: It's just not – it's not as like – it's refreshing, but it doesn't feel as heavy as white wine does sometimes.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, I totally feel it. It's a good summer drink.
AM: Cool. Thank you for validating my opinion.
JS: You're welcome.
AM: Speaking of wine actually – that, that wasn't a planned segue. But Winc is still offering our US listeners over 21 $20 bucks off your first order of wine right to your house. They have awesome wines. You can do a quiz online. They send it right to your house.
JS: Yes. It's delicious. I am drinking a glass of it right now. It is a Movia Rosso 2016 named, She Loves Me I think, which is like amazing. It's a great – it's beautiful label. It's very floral. It feels very summery, and I love it so much. The flavor is very like Pinot Grigio, but with more granny smith apple and peach flavors to it.
AM: Interesting. I would not have known any of that if you hadn't told me before I drank it, but I can taste it when I do.
JS: I know.
AM: And y'all can enjoy that. You can basically get a bottle and a half of wine for free and get $20 bucks off your first order if you go to trywinc. That’s W - I - N - C. So, trywinc.com/spirits. Again, US listeners over 21. But, if you do that, then Winc will like us and want to come back.
JS: Yes. And --
AM: And we want that very much.
JS: And, you know, that means we get more wine too. So, you get wine. We get wine. Everyone's happy,
AM: Everyone wins.
JS: So, guys this week, instead of doing a recommendation corner, we are bringing you very, very exciting news.
AM: This is pretty much all that Julia wants to talk to me about for the last six months.
JS: Pretty much.
AM: So, what is it, Jules?
JS: We're finally doing merch. We're doing merch.
AM: We’re finally doing merch.
JS: Oh, guys, I'm so excited. We are going to be launching a shirt and a pin set. So, we had some really amazing artists design these pins and these shirts, and it is so pretty. It's so cool. You guys like we called for artists. Y'all showed up. And these are some of our favorites. We're going to release more, but we're starting with just the pins and the shirt.
AM: So, we're gonna have a two-week long pre-order. Meaning, if you go to spiritspodcast.com/merch, you will be taken to our beautiful new merch store at DFTBA, which is an awesome like creator-owned Indie like record label and merch store. And, so, we're gonna have a kind of creepy, kind of cool t-shirt. And it is beautiful, designed by a listener. And this beautiful pin set of a selkie, a siren, and Mami Wata. And they are like the most beautiful pins. I want to like have life-size versions of them in my house designed by Ishaarah, who’s a listener. And it is so, so good. So, so good.
JS: It's – they're gorgeous. I'm so excited for that. I'm excited to wear them myself. I'm excited to wear the t-shirt myself, which is amazing and shitty self-promotion, but I love it anyway.
AM: I know. We don't wear graphic tees that much, but this one we actually do want to wear.
JS: This one I will wear the shit out of, because it's so cool.
AM: And, like I said, they are pre-orders, because we don't know how many of you actually want to buy t-shirts. And it's hard to place that order and to convince, you know, an awesome company like DFTBA that we are worth working with. And we don't know how many folks want to wear our stuff on their bodies. So, if you go again to spiritspodcast.com/merch, you can pre-order the pin set. You can pre-order the t-shirt. They may be available again later in the year. But, if this first preorder doesn't you know measure up, then they may not be. So, if this is something that you want, I would love it if you could place an order now. You know, holidays are only like five months away.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You can – you can get something, you know, for your best friend, who would love Spirits as you tell her to listen to the show.
JS: I mean that makes sense.
AM: You can just like secretly be buying her a present ahead of time. I like to do that for you.
JS: I know you – I know you do.
AM: October sneaks up on me. So --
JS: Yeah. Yeah. It always sneaks on me too.
AM: -- I, I tried to get it done at the end of the – at the end of the summer.
JS: Yeah. You got this.
AM: But we are so stoked. Thank you so much to everybody who emailed us about designers. We are hoping to bring you so much more merch in the future. I want shot glasses. I want mugs. I want posters. I want more t-shirts. I want tank tops.
JS: We have a lot of really good ideas. I'm partial to the tote. I think we're going to do some dope ass totes.
AM: And like we know how to make a great tote y'all.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like we use totes. We know how to make them with good straps, and good bottoms, and maybe like a zipper. We'll see.
JS: Hell yeah. Hell yeah. So, guys, make sure you go to spiritspodcast.com/merch. And you can pre order these dope ass shirts. And we're gonna see you guys. We're gonna see you wearing shirts and our pins and stuff that has our name on it.
AM: Oh, my gosh.
JS: It's gonna be amazing.
AM: I can't. I'm so pumped.
JS: I can't. All right. So, Amanda, let's head into the episode. Shall we?
AM: Let's do it. Enjoy y'all Spirits Podcast Episode 39: Toyotama-Hime.
Intro Music:
JS: So, Amanda, I think, over the years, you have told me so many good relationship stories.
AM: About mine.
JS: Yes, about yours.
AM: Right. Because you've been in a stable lovely relationship --
JS: For eight years. Yes.
AM: -- for eight years. And I have dated far and wide.
JS: Yes.
AM: Across the globe.
JS: And you've told me some real doozies. I went through college and heard some real doozies.
AM: You did? Why are we starting here?
JS: This week, we're gonna talk about the best mythology relationship story I have ever read in my entire life
AM: That is a really high bar.
JS: I know.
AM: And, also, it sounds like you're trying to give me some backdoor advice, which I don't appreciate.
JS: I'm not trying to give you any advice. This ends poorly. You don't want to be in this relationship.
AM: All right. Well, let's see – let's see what goes on.
JS: Spoiler alert, it ends poorly.
AM: I mean Spirits Podcast.
JS: Okay. So, Amanda, this week, I want to talk to you about a Japanese goddess named Toyotama-hime.
AM: Okay.
JS: Not only does she have a great name, because it means either Lady Bountiful Soul or Luxuriant Jewel Princess, but she has perhaps one of the greatest relationship stories we've ever talked about on the show.
AM: Sounds like she should be a character in Steven Universe. And that means -
JS: Yes, she should.
AM: -- A+ in my book.
JS: It would be so good,
AM: Awww. I just surprised you. Nice.
JS: That would be adorable. I would love that. Are you ready for all kinds of amazing? It is better than any soap opera story about love and loss. And it's just so good. It's the Grey's Anatomy of mythology in my opinion,
AM: Better than my novellas? Give it to me.
JS: Bring it on. But, first, let's get some of the boring stuff out of the way, because that's what we do. So, the main stories about Toyotama-hime are told in the Kojiki, which is the record of ancient matters and the Nihon Shoki, which is known as the Chronicles of Japan. So, basically --
AM: I'm so proud of your pronunciation.
JS: Thank you. I actually did practice this.
AM: Good job.
JS: Basically, these are two historical texts that outline the story of how the goddess met a prince named Luck of the Mountains also known as Yamasachi or Fire Subside which is Hoori. So, Toyotama-hime was the daughter of a sea deity known as Watatsumi and lived with Watatsumi in an underwater castle at the bottom of the sea, which was supposedly made out of fish scale.
AM: Amazing images already.
JS: It’s my favorite.
AM: I want a Disney children's movie about it.
JS: I know. You know how much I love underwater castles.
AM: And you know how much I loved sequined garments.
JS: Yes, you do. But like a sequined garment.
AM: And the idea of an underwater castle that is like fully-sequined in fish scales – like Rainbow Fish was my favorite book as a kid for a reason.
JS: I could have fuckin’ called that. There was also --
AM: I have a copyright over there, right behind me.
JS: I'm not surprised. There was also another one when we were kids that was about a shiny dinosaur and his shiny --
AM: Oh, there was.
JS: -- dinosaurness helped him save other dinosaurs.
AM: He was so cute.
JS: He was very cute.
AM: Why does difference always have to be like societally accepted when it's helpful though? Like Rudolph, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like you're weird until you can help us, and then you’re fine.
JS: No.
AM: Like, “No. F that.”
JS: No, fuck that.
AM: Rudolph, like, like go on strike. No. Live your life. They should accept you for who you are babe.
JS: That is true.
AM: Socialist children's book corner. This has been Spirits Podcast.
JS: So, Watatsumi, I should mention, is usually portrayed as a giant water dragon, while Toyotama-hime is usually portrayed as a beautiful maiden. He's also sometimes known as King Ryujin, which is known as the Dragon God
AM: I'm getting Spirited Away vibes.
JS: It is very Spirited Away vibes. I, I'm glad you made that cultural reference. Good job, Amanda.
AM: I saw it for the first time this summer. Thanks, [Inaudible 9:37].
JS: Of course, you did. So, the story begins when Toyotama-hime meets Yamasachi for the first time. Obviously, it's a good place to start the story.
AM: And is he in dragon form or boy form?
JS: No. Toyotama-hime is the maiden, and then Yamasachi is not the dragon. Her dad is the dragon. Yamasachi is the cool prince dude.
AM: Got it.
JS: So, the prince came to the sea in search for a fishing hook that he had lost in the ocean, which had been getting to him by his elder brother known as Luck of the Sea, which is Umisachi.
AM: So, you don't want to lose a gift given to you by the Luck of the Sea.
JS: Yeah, basically. And they all have these names that are basically the luck of a certain area, just for context. So, Toyotama-hime goes to a nearby well to draw water, because, you know, they have wells underwater for some reason.
AM: Maybe it's like a SpongeBob SquarePants style like giant biodome where inside --
JS: It might be.
AM: Inside it's air.
JS: Like Sandy, the Squirrel.
AM: Exactly.
JS: Okay. Cool. So, Yamasachi is already waiting there having climbed a tree that overhangs the well.
AM: Cool.
JS: Yamasachi calls out to her from the tree asking for a sip of water from the well. Toyotama-hime hands him the bucket, and Yamasachi does this cool guy move of sipping the water and then spitting jewels back into the bucket.
AM: Uhmmm. I feel like regurgitation is a strong move for, for a meet cute. Like do that in the privacy of your own home, and then bring her back like some nice jewelry. But I feel like that's just – that's a lot.
JS: I feel like that would be the first date with a magician. I just thought about it. It's just like your first date with Penn and Teller because you're dating both of them.
AM: New Netflix mini series, First Date with the Magician.
JS: Oh, my god. I want it.
AM: Can you fucking imagine, Julia? And like there's all kinds of magicians, all kinds of people, all kinds of dates. Go to taco truck. Go dine in a restaurant. Go, go to a fucking laser tag arena. Like who cares? It'll be amazing.
JS: I'm crying at this idea. It’s really good.
AM: You actually are. Actual tears are coming out of your eyes.
JS: I’m fine.
AM: Normally, I make myself cry with my goofs. I'm glad that you have had this stroke of genius.
JS: Really good one. It's a really good one. Okay. Sorry. So, naturally, Toyotama-hime is completely smitten by this cool jewel-spitting technique.
AM: Come on, girl, you can do better.
JS: So, she brings Yamasachi before her god dad. And Watatsumi recognize --
AM: Sorry. Dad is a god, not like godfather.
JS: No. Like god-dad. God who is also her dad.
AM: Okay. Okay. Just checking
JS: Are we good?
AM: Just checking.
JS: Okay.
AM: So, there's like a Marlon Brando situation here.
JS: It would be weird as hell.
AM: It was someone like smoking a cigar, eating an orange slice, dying, like figuring it all out.
JS: Spoilers for Godfather.
AM: I'm just into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: So, Watatsumi recognizes that Yamasachi is a descendant of some divine gods. So, he obviously approves of the marriage, and the couple resides in the palace after their marriage for three years.
AM: Like, yeah, you know, what's your son-in-law like? You know, pretty good, Good, good lineage. Good parentage. Spits emeralds. But, you know, doing, doing my daughter right I think.
JS: I almost spat my wine out. Thank you for that.
AM: You did. I looked out and made sure that my, my carpet wasn't under you.
JS: We’re good. We’re good. We’re good.
AM: It, it is.
JS: It is, but I put my hand up. So, it's all fine.
AM: Thank you. Regurgitation is allowable after 25 years of friendship, Julia. So --
JS: Thank you. Would it have been better if I'd spat out sapphires though?
AM: It would have been, because then we could upgrade our, our hardware here.
JS: Cool. Cool. Cool. They spend their time there for three years. After three years though, Yamasachi lets out a very emo passive-aggressive sigh.
AM: Okay. Wow.
JS: He tells his wife that the whole reason he showed up to the palace, in the first place, was because he was missing that damn fish hook. And, now, he has to still return it to his brother.
AM: So, after three years, he was just like this has been great, but something's holding him back?
JS: Yes.
AM: Or, is he like, “All right. Three years. Like done and dusted.” After three years, your allowed to tell your wife about your life-consuming quests that, that had brought you together.
JS: I think the former.
AM: Okay.
JS: But the latter would be funny.
AM: That would be funny.
JS: Toyotama-hime encourages him to leave.
AM: You know – you know, the third anniversary present, Julia? It's life-altering secrets.
JS: You know, diamonds.
AM: Secret kids. Past arrests. Forged identities.
JS: Diamonds and ivories. I think ivory is one of them. And then secrets.
AM: Ivory is definitely not one of them. That's illegal.
JS: Why isn’t it? I don't think ivories – oh, I've been thinking of pearls probably
AM: You are thinking of pearls or like china or something.
JS: I am thinking of pearls. One of those things, you know.
AM: Julia, looks, looks around her shoulder at her like ivory china set and says, “Ooh.”
JS: My bad. My bad.
AM: Thank me a lot.
JS: Toyotama-hime encourages him to leave and go find the fishhook, which he does find eventually in the throat of a giant fish.
AM: Okay. Great. I'm sure there's a whole story there.
JS: Yes. But then, as he returns to Toyotama-hime, he gets attacked by a giant fathom-long crocodile.
AM: Jesus, a fathom is a long --.
JS: It is a --
AM: -- a long bit there.
JS: -- a long bit. A very much long bit.
AM: That's actually – the metric conversion is, is long bit.
JS: Long bit?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Okay.
AM: One fathom is one long bit in a standard --
JS: Does that mean like one tooth is about a mile? I don't know how fathoms work.
AM: Fathom. I think a fathom is – I have absolutely no idea.
JS: Not good. And you almost convinced me that you did. I appreciate that. I think you’re --
AM: I was gonna say slightly less than a mile, but I have literally no idea.
JS: I figured you had read Moby Dick so many times that you did know what a fathom was.
AM: They don't talk about fathom, motherfucker.
JS: Oh.
AM: They talk about whales.
JS: Okay. Well, whatever. It's not good. Shut the fuck up. So, I imagine this fight with the giant fathom-long crocodile is a great battle. But I want to focus on Toyotama-hime, because she's the important part of the story.
AM: Yeah. Like what is she doing on shore when he's off frolicking doing his Maui shit? Like she's not – she's not sleeping with a – with a selkie you bet.
JS: That's 100 percent true. Focus on the lady is my point.
AM: Weird.
JS: So, basically, Yamasachi survives and needs to return the fishhook to his brother. He convinces Toyotama-hime to come with him to the surface. And, at the same time, Toyotama-hime decides this is the perfect time to tell you, “Btdubs, I'm prego --
AM: Okay. Great.
JS: -- with his baby.”
AM: Also, don't worry, I looked it up. A fathom is six feet long.
JS: What? No. No, it is not.
AM: Yes, it is.
JS: No, it’s not.
AM: I thought it was like a mile.
JS: Yeah, I did too.
AM: Nope. It's not a – not a mythically large crocodile. It's just a normal sized --
JS: It was just a normal crocodile.
AM: -- a normal ass crocodile.
JS: That can't be right.
AM: Okay. To be fair, fathoms could have meant something different in Ancient Japan or like in the many, many ways that this has been retold, but like, you know, the more you know.
JS: I don't think it was a six foot crocodile. I think it was a much bigger one.
AM: So much bigger one.
JS: Otherwise, they wouldn’t have made a point and be like a fathom-long crocodile.
AM: That's like saying a yard-long couch --
JS: Whoa.
AM: -- like, “Brother, that's barely a love set.”
JS: That’s a tiny, tiny couch. Toyotama-hime is prego. Yamasachi promises to make her a thatched hut in order for her to give birth, because privacy during birth is an important aspect in the story as you're about to see.
AM: Okay.
JS: And also in just Ancient Japan. But it isn't finished in time for Toyotama-hime to use when she goes into labor.
AM: Went well.
JS: I mean it's usable, but it's not finished. So, it's not completely covered. And it's not completely private.
AM: Neither was the house that I grew up in. When my mom was pregnant with my youngest two siblings and was like giving birth in the hospital, my dad was like – I have a memory actually of me being left at home being six years old. And my dad being like, “Okay. The couch is being delivered today. So, just like deal with that.” In reality, one of my grandparents is probably there. But I remember just like the couch being delivered and just being like, “Well, I guess it goes over there.” And then the twins being brought home as like the plastic on the couch is being taken off.
JS: I genuinely thought that you are going to say that your mother gave birth at home.
AM: No.
JS: I was gonna be like the twins in like --
AM: They’re twins. No.
JS: -- in a bathtub?
AM: No, no, no.
JS: What's happening?
AM: No. None of that shit.
JS: What's going on?
AM: Also, I have so many EMTs in my family that, that would have been impossible.
JS: No, no, no.
AM: An ambulance appears whenever they're in need.
JS: Unless, she decided to have a [Inaudible 17:18].
AM: Well, in which case, like power to you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: [Inaudible 17:20] no.
JS: But your family would have rushed her to the hospital anyway.
AM: No. Kids number three and four, we don't have time for that.
JS: No one's got time for that. So, as Toyotama-hime is about to give birth, she tells Yamasachi to promise her that he won't watch as she gives birth to their child.
AM: Because there is cultural significance here to privacy.
JS: Right. But guess what Yamasachi does?
AM: I bet he looks.
JS: Yeah. He spends a good amount to be – to his credit, he spends a good amount of time being patient and waiting. But then his curiosity obviously gets the best of him and he peeks through the slots in the hut to see what's going on.
AM: I mean I would also be worried for my partner if she were inside like giving birth.
JS: Sure.
AM: Like that, that's a big thing.
JS: I mean yeah. He, to his surprise, sees, depending on which version, either a crocodile or a dragon cradling the baby.
AM: Oh, my goodness.
JS: Yes.
AM: Secret animorph.
JS: Obviously, this is Toyotama-hime, who has shifted from her natural water deity maiden form into a dragon or crocodile depending on the story.
AM: That is so incredibly badass. Also, the act of birth is a fucking miracle and exciting badass thing. So, like, yes, it makes sense that you're a frickin reptilian dinosaur descended – like, you know, badass mfer after having done it.
JS: Yeah. You return to your like physical impressive form when you're giving birth --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- and going through these trials.
AM: Yeah. It's like – it's like the Olympics, but, every day, as women, you know, push life into the world.
JS: Yeah. So, Toyotama-hime, as the stories usually go, discovers that Yamasachi was spying on her and is utterly ashamed that he had seen her trueform and mortified and angry that he spied on her.
AM: Yeah. It's like every romance with a werewolf. It's like, once you see me in my way, wa, wa --.
JS: My wa, wa, wa, wa form. My wa, wa, wa form.
AM: I'm too embarrassed here. Come on.
JS: That's fine. Come on. Go ahead. Once you see them in the werewolf form.
AM: It's like every werewolf romance novel, Julia. Of which, I have read a few.
JS: I'm not surprised. Go ahead,
AM: Which is like, once you see me in my werewolf form, you're not going to love me anymore. It's like, “No, babe, I’ll love you more.”
JS: Yeah, pretty much. Toyotama-hime can no longer face Yamasachi and cannot forgive him. So, she leaves him and their child named Ugayafukiaezu on the mainland and returns to the sea. Basically, she rides off on a turtle into the sunset.
AM: Amazing.
JS: Which is, basically, the best breakup story I have ever heard in my entire life.
AM: Finding Nemo vibes.
JS: And that comes from a time where my college roommate called me on the freeway driving from her house in LA --
AM: She did.
JS: -- to LAX with me on speaker telling me that her boyfriend who was in the car --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- the person she was driving to --
AM: Yup.
JS: -- the airport, had cheated on her --
AM: Yup.
JS: -- and was, basically, ranting. And it was the best story ever.
AM: It's true. So, just to set the scene again, someone visiting her in California from the East Coast, she finds out that he had cheated on her in a way – you know, in a way that was not discussed previous. And she drives him to the airport to kick his ass out of her State with Julia on speakerphone explaining to her the story.
JS: And asking me what the name of the hot guy in my history class was because she's going to start dating him now.
AM: She is the most badass, and I love her.
JS: I love her so much. She's getting married next year --
AM: Love you, See.
JS: -- and I get to be one of her bridesmaids.
AM: You’re the best.
JS: That's gonna be great. All right. Anyway, she doesn't completely abandon them though, which is nice. Instead, she sends her younger sister Tamayori to help raise the child. Eventually, her son would grow up, marry Tamayori, and they would give birth to a child that would become the first Emperor of Japan.
AM: Okay. It's pretty badass.
JS: Yes.
AM: Not sure how I feel about my sister marrying my son.
JS: It's a much younger sister I guess.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Like she's probably like 14 when she sends her --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- to help raise the child.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It’s only a 14-year difference. So, that’s not so bad.
AM: Julia is, is making it -- is making it logically okay. And I mean also there's some – something to be said about like, you know, the person you're being raised by, you know. Like it can be a little, little odd.
JS: Yeah. It's a little bit of an Electra complex. I will not lie.
AM: Word.
JS: But, you know --
AM: Thanks for your analysis there
JS: Live that life and --
AM: Live your life.
JS: They did give birth to the first Emperor of Japan.
AM: Birth the Emperor of Japan. Fair enough.
JS: So, that's very cool.
AM: Fair enough.
JS: You know, great people come from weird backgrounds sometimes.
AM: That's true. I just saw Pacific Overtures, the Sondheim musical.
JS: Okay.
AM: Oft overlooked. I've never seen it before.
JS: Okay.
AM: And it is about the kind of, you know, “opening of Japan” by Commodore Matthew Perry.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. In 1853 or something. That sounds about right. Just gonna – just gonna roll with it.
JS: Sure.
AM: And the, the fact of the Emperor being, you know, divinely born and divinely led is, is a kind of prominent feature in that musical.
JS: Yeah. Usually, I believe – I do not know a super ton about Japanese mythology. But I believe that the Emperor should be able to draw their lineage back to the Sun Goddess Amaterasu in order to claim divine lineage.
AM: Sounds right.
JS: Sounds right. Feels right.
Midroll Music:
JS: So, Amanda, this week's episode of Spirits is brought to you by Winc.
AM: It sure is double sponsor.
JS: Double sponsor time. So, Winc is a wine delivery service.
AM: It comes right to your door. It's so convenient.
JS: It's so good guys. All you have to do is take a quick short quiz. I took it in less than five minutes. And they delivered wine that was delicious right to me.
AM: Yeah. Dummies like me who don't know anything about wine or sophisticated folks like Julia who know exactly what they want can get wine delivered to you. And so generously they are offering $20 off and free shipping to US listeners over 21 on their first order from Winc.
JS: Yeah. You gotta have to be legal to, you know, drink some wine. But, listen, it is good, good wine.
AM: It is.
JS: It is delicious
AM: It is. Average price is like $13 bucks a bottle, but, with that discount of $20, you get like a bottle and a half for free. That is pretty great.
JS: It is pretty cool.
AM: And you can get all of that at trywinc.com/spirits. That's tryW - I - N - C.com/spirits.
JS: I was talking to Mike Schubes today about our awesome, awesome Winc sponsorship.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And he was basically telling me I don't drink wine, but you know what I'm going to order a box because sometimes it's nice to have wine around when people come over for parties and stuff.
AM: For parties. Same. I don't drink wine really ever, but Julia does.
JS: I do.
AM: And, so, I always have some on hand for her or someone who comes over that doesn't like liquor --
JS: God bless you.
AM: -- or doesn't like beer. But just having it on hand is really awesome. You know, order a box, have it on hand, keep them in your pantry. They stay good forever. And you can get them, basically, at half price if you do this offer code.
JS: It's honestly the perfect service for any host, anyone who enjoys wine, anyone who hosts dinners and stuff like that. It is great to just have wine on hand and just ready to go. And you don't have to run to the store last minute thinking, “Oh, no I don't have any wine on hand.”
AM: I’m gonna sweat off my makeup. I have to bring a housewarming present to this party.
JS: Yeah, exactly.
AM: So, thank you so much to Winc for sponsoring us. If you want to show your support and take advantage of this awesome offer, you can go to trywinc, W - I - N - C.com/spirits.
JS: Do it up.
AM: Thanks,Winc.
JS: Fun fact story time, before we kind of dive into the nitty gritty and, you know, kind of discuss our myth, the extinct crocodile genus, Toyotamaphimeia, is named after this deity.
AM: Dope.
JS: Which is great. I love it. And it's a direct reference to this myth. And, in a lot of ways, this myth is very similar to the myth of the selkies. A selkie wife will stay with her human husband, bears him children until she has a chance to revert to her normal animal form, and escape to the sea.
AM: Yeah, because she's like, “It's better down here.”
JS: Yeah, basically
AM: I’m weightless.
JS: Yeah. And just --
AM: And my hair always flows.
JS: You just want to chill out in the ocean. I don't blame you. The ocean is a cool, cool place, especially if you live in a castle that's made out of fish scales.
AM: I keep coming back to that though.
JS: So cool.
AM: So good. Like can you imagine like mermaid style like hip huggin, green, blue, aqua dress.
JS: Take a look.
AM: It’s a good look.
JS: It's a good, good look.
AM: Good look. I bet there's been cool like wedding cosplays --
JS: Oh, I bet it.
AM: -- around this myth.
JS: Additionally, a lot of modern Japanese media is inspired by the story of Toyotama-hime, a half dragon, half human hybrid is a big trope that's usually featured in a lot of books --
AM: Huh.
JS: --movies, TV shows, anime, et cetera. I just wanna kind of get this out of the way before we discuss the myth itself. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people who kind of think Toyotama-hime should have taken her kid with her or stayed to help raise her child, or something like that, which is totally understandable. But we're also assuming that this kid is mostly mortal/human, right?
AM: Right.
JS: He ended up having the first very human emperor of Japan as a son.
AM: Wow.
JS: So, clearly, this kid was meant to be on the mainland and not hanging around underneath the ocean in this cool, cool palace that we really love.
AM: Yeah. And like biologically who knows how that works.
JS: Right.
AM: Like that could have been like not possible. And, also, as a god, you know, that's something that's, that's really hard I bet to deal with.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like have a mortal child. That's obviously like, you know, to get real for a second, every parent's worst nightmare.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, and, to know that that is going to happen from the get go, I can't imagine.
JS: Yeah. It also makes me think of Achilles and his mother. They would visit a lot, but Achilles was raised by his very human father. And the mother knew through prophecy and stuff like that Achilles would one day die. So, I think that's a really kind of challenging, challenging situation to be in as a parent just in general.
AM: For sure.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Also, just in terms of like the lived experience and psychological experience of being immortal, it reminds me of one of my favorite movies ever, which is Only Lovers Left Alive with Tom Hiddleston and Tilda Swinton.
JS: As soon as you said that, I knew exactly what you're gonna say.
AM: Yes. And, listened y'all, I love vampires. I love lore. I love world building. And, anything that has a really unique take on something I know really well, whether it is werewolves, or vampires, or magic, or whatever, I'm gonna read or watch and love it. And Only Lovers Left Alive is about two very, very old vampires, like thousands of years old. And just like what the actual lived experience is like waking up every day and, you know, that has been happening to you for 3,000 years. And it is – it is lovely. And the only piece of media I've ever really seen that, that like deals with that dimension. So, recommendation, go for it.
JS: Go for it. I just want to finish this out. It's not like Toyotama-hime never interacted with them again. She sent her sister to look after her child to make sure that he was raised properly fulfilling her motherly obligation even if it was through another person.
AM: Sure. So she didn't just like totally walk away.
JS: Right. And I can totally imagine her sending little gifts and stuff for him through Tamayori.
AM: Yeah. And like so many millions and millions of men and women who, you know, leave their family to go be breadwinners elsewhere. Like that's a real choice that people have to make.
JS: So, I kind of just want to talk about the role of motherhood in this episode.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And then also just relationships and how you know it's time to leave.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Which I think is an interesting topic. It mostly reminds me of the story of Eros and Psyche because one of the chief morals that that story is supposed to teach is love cannot exist where there is no trust.
AM: Yeah, dude.
JS: Which this story is all about basically.
AM: 100 percent.
JS: Yeah. Because the story is basically what, what it comes down to is Toyotama-hime cannot trust Yamasachi anymore.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, she has to leave. And I understand that. You know, like you – I'm sure every single one of us has been in a relationship where – even if it's not a romantic relationship where our trust was, you know, betrayed, and we had to leave the situation because, once that trust is betrayed, it – you either have to work very hard to build it back up or it just disappears completely.
AM: Yeah. And a thing that sucks is always kind of wondering if, you know, the person is being truthful. And I can imagine too that like raising a child – like it's not something that obviously either one of us has faced yet. But you don't want to kind of put out those vibes of always wondering if --
JS: Right.
AM: -- dad is telling the truth. You know what I mean? Like --
JS: It, it reminds me of those couples who have shared Facebook accounts and someone just goes --
AM: What?
JS: -- “Oh, you know, they cheated in the past.”
AM: Is that a thing?
JS: That's 100 percent a thing.
AM: Were just – it's just the couple like Chris and Linda. And like --
JS: Yeah.
AM: Wooh.
JS: Yeah. And you know it's because Chris cheated in the past. And, now, Linda don't trust him anymore.
AM: Well, that's creepy.
JS: You didn't know that was the thing?
AM: No.
JS: Yeah. It’s a thing.
AM: Who’s to say he doesn't have his own? I mean probably.
JS: I mean he probably does. But he's like, “Yeah, honey. This is my Facebook account. It's our joint Facebook account.”
AM: That's pretty creepy.
JS: Chris is --
AM: I've heard of babies having their own.
JS: Chris is a dick. Chris is a dick.
AM: I've never known – and let me think about this carefully before I say this on mic. I don't think I've known a noncelebrity Chris that I liked.
JS: My cousin is Chris.
AM: Your cousin Chris, I like.
JS: We had Chris over the other day.
AM: We had drinks literally four days ago. I like him quite a lot.
JS: Okay. Good.
AM: He is just a celebrity by heart. Yeah. No, I'm not gonna stand by that statement.
JS: Okay. Good. That was a good statement though. I did like it.
AM: You know, I’m trying to take hot take strong stances when I can. And I’m also a fan of like knowing what you need and knowing what you can and can’t give. Because, you know, If you’re trying to be there for someone, but you’re always overworked. Or, you’re trying to – you know, you commit to something and you’re trying to carry it through, but you can’t do the job that you want to do because it’s not the right match for you or you’re, again, like overcommitted to other places. You know, that is sometimes – I would say often worse than saying, “Listen, this is something I can’t do. I’m sorry for, you know, backing out or whatever.” And I, I respect someone who has enough like inner kind of knowledge to be like, “Listen, this is me. And this is what I’m gonna do. I’m going to do my best to, you know, give you something instead.” And, you know, that’s what it is.
JS: I agree. So, in the instance of Toyotama-hime, she gives birth, you know, in an instance where she is – you know, she had trusted Yamasachi. She had followed him from her home up into his world. And then, when he betrays her, she's faced with a very tough decision. Do I leave behind this child and my husband? Or, do I stay here and stay with a man I don't trust and a child, you know, that is just born into this world, who is mortal just like his father?
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it's just a very complicated situation. And I think it puts a lot of emphasis on the devil you know versus the devil you don't. You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, in Toyotama-hime’s case, she returns back to the ocean because this is where she's comfortable. This is where her father – you know, she's in a position of privilege, where she doesn't have to, you know, work or anything like that. She is a princess. She is a goddess. And she leaves behind this world of mortality and this world where she has a husband and son, but one that she can't trust. And I think that's a really big statement, especially when you're thinking about – not that it ever gets to this point in the story, but abusive relationships or something like that. In this kind of situation, she has a support system that she can fall back on. But she also probably struggles with the thought of, you know, leaving behind the support system she had in order to get back to the support system that is her father and the life that she had before her child and her husband.
AM: And I would even challenge the phrase fall back on, because leaving something you know, and trying out a different option, and returning, at the end of the day, to the thing in which you started because it happens to be the right fit for you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, that's not – that's not like accepting the default. Like you did the work of figuring out is this actually the place, or the person, or the lifestyle that I want to have or be in. And you figured out that like, “Yeah. Like this is – this fits me for a reason or my values are the same as this.” You know, I feel that way sometimes. Like both of us, you know, we live in New York either in or not far from the town we grew up in having lived elsewhere in between. And, you know, I, I never feel like guilt or whatever wondering about what could have been. Because, you know, we [Inaudible 33:12] of the world. We traveled. We like that. But, you know, the place that I was born in happens to fit me really, really well. And like that's – you know, that's fine.
JS: Yeah, I agree. That wasn't the best choice of words, but I definitely --
AM: No. Not, not against --
JS: No, no, no.
AM: Not against the words that you're using.
JS: Right.
AM: But just to say like I think that's another element that at least I'm reading into this myth.
JS: Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I think, in this situation, Toyotama-hime doesn't fall back necessarily, but she returns to the world that she feels she’s supposed to be in. She tried out the mortal world. It didn't work for her. Her husband betrayed her like the first --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- couple of hours they’re there.
AM: Yeah. And talk about being betrayed in like the most vulnerable position. That’s the worst thing you could ever be in.
JS: Yeah. Giving birth? Holy shit.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: That is – that is --.
AM: Like not just one but two lives in the balance literally. And like --
JS: Seriously.
AM: -- the most primal like – oh, god.
JS: Yeah. No. I completely agree with that. I think it is – it is a position that she found herself in. It's not a good position she found herself in. She returned back home, because, you know, it was a place of comfort. It was a place where she belonged. And I think that's a totally valid thing to do.
AM: 100 percent.
JS: I think destiny would be an interesting topic to discuss just because the story ends with their son. And their son is then, you know, going to create the line of what will be the Japanese emperors for centuries and centuries to come.
AM: Dynasty. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. It’s literally a dynasty. And I think it's interesting because, a lot of times, we think of dynasty here in the United States, at least, as sort of a – not a – I mean, especially in the United States, it is a short-lived thing. The country has not been around for very long. We look at the Kennedys as a dynasty, even though they've only been around since – I don't know – the 40s at the earliest sort of thing.
AM: Yeah. And with a certain amount of skepticism and like really – like can this really have been the best choice two and three and four times in a row?
JS: Right.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But I think it's interesting that so much faith is put into the concept of dynasty in early Japanese mythology. The idea that this person is divine and, therefore, they're meant to lead us.
AM: Interesting. And I like too that like the father of the emperor had to overcome some hardship in his life. You know, it's – I don't know, obviously, the, the cultural differences. But, at least here for us, like the idea of overcoming obstacles and sort of rags to riches, pulling yourself up, you know, it's a thing that really lends I think like legitimacy and credence to a person's origin story and origin myth.
JS: Oh, yeah. That's literally the American dream.
AM: Exactly. Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, if, if the emperor were born to a god, maybe it’ll be a little bit too easy. You know what I mean?
JS: Yeah.
AM: But, for him to have divine lineage but have been raised by parents who know had to make their own way in the world, that kind of seems like the best of both situations.
JS: Yeah. No. I completely agree with that. It gives him legitimacy not only because of the divine rule and the divine lineage, but it also gives legitimacy in the sense that, “Oh, he's not, you know, directly descended from a god. He's not literally the child of a god. He is, you know --
AM: Man of Earth.
JS: He is a man of the Earth. He is a mortal. He is here, and he is much like the people.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Which is kind of beautiful. Don't you think?
AM: That is really beautiful. And it calls to mind all the sort of like my grandma had the sixth sense like stories --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- that we would tell each other, you know, and, and, and do to this day. Like we have so many friends, you know, from, from our hometown who's like grandma had the sight, you know. And, and that's sort of – that level of remove – I don't know. There's something about it that feels like you can draw on it, but, but you yourself are, are far enough removed that it's real. Like my grandpa talks about fairies, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like he was from Ireland. And, and that I – I don't know. Like it's enough that I'm like – I feel some attachment to it. But I also don't feel like it takes away from my like being a like rational person living in today.
JS: And I think that touch of divinity also lends legitimacy.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Like you just said, your grandmother has the sight, but that's enough away from you that you're like, “I don't personally experienced this thing, but I know it's real because, you know, someone in my family has it.”
AM: Exactly. Exactly.
JS: And I think that's almost exactly what gets the – you know, a dynasty the power that it does, because you understand this is a thing that exists. I’m not – I might not be experiencing it firsthand for myself, but --
AM: Right.
JS: -- I know it's a thing that exists.
AM: Yeah. Or like the pieces were put in place by, you know, the creators. But I'm the one that, you know, moved them the way that they should be moved. Or, the stage was set – you know, the, the pieces were there. And I'm the one who brought it to reality, where it's, it's the sort of like the fates conspired for this to be a thing that should happen. But, but I myself the mortal still had to make it so. And that feels like really the ideal combination of like not only is this person like hardworking and skilled and knows what the heck they're doing, but also like fate is on her side.
JS: I like that. I super like that. So, Amanda, on a scale of one to 10 --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- how would you rate Toyotama-hime’s relationship story to once you've heard in New York City?
AM: I mean it's a pretty great story.
JS: It’s pretty solid.
AM: I would give it probably – let me think of the dimensions in which I want to rate this story.
JS: There, there is like transformation into a dragon/crocodile.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And also gem spitting.
AM: Right. So, like, in terms of – in terms of the meat cute, the origin story, like that's probably a solid eight out of 10.
JS: Okay.
AM: A little bit gross. Certainly, memorable. Paints a real world picture in my mind.
JS: It does.
AM: Great. In terms of fallout, definitely a 10 out of 10. Leaving your kid behind and needing to flee not only the city, not only the state, not only the country, but the realm. That's pretty intense.
JS: And on a sea turtle no less.
AM: On a sea turtle. Finding Nemo style. Into that. Into that torrent of whatever it was called. The, the – whatever. What was it? The like curry?
JS: I'm not even gonna tell you because like it’s great.
AM: The current?
JS: It was the current. You're right.
AM: It’s not the --
JS: No. No. You’re right. It’s the current.
AM: My brain wants to say the, the PCT, the Pacific Crest Trail or whatever it's called. But that, that’s not right.
JS: Yeah. Something like that.
AM: Anyway. The, the thermo – oh, fuck. So close. You’re so evil.
JS: Oh, it’s so good watching you struggle like that. It's so good.
AM: Thank you, best friend, companion from the cradle. In terms of trust, that's an easy one out of 10. Don't look. Don't look.
JS: Yeah, don't look.
AM: Just don't.
JS: It's literally the story of --
AM: Trust her.
JS: -- Orpheus and Eurydice
AM: Super.
JS: Don't fucking look, dude.
AM: Super is.
JS: She's there behind you. Don't look. You're gonna send her back into the Underworld.
AM: I know. I know.
JS: Fucking dick.
AM: And communication, also probably like a four out of 10.
JS: Yeah, not great.
AM: She told him what she needed. He didn't listen.
JS: Yeah. He also wasn't very good at communicating. You know, the whole, “The reason I came down here three years ago was I came for a fish hook.”
AM: Yep. Yep. Yep. No. No. No. That is something that should definitely happen pre-marriage.
JS: Yeah.
AM: In that – in that prenup. Very useful.
JS: They got swept up in that.
AM: Yeah. They really – they got – but, in terms of like – yeah. Like romance, commitment, and devotion, you know, it sounds pretty whirlwind.
JS: And betrayal. That’s always a plus.
AM: Also, betrayal. They – those things do go hand in hand. And, so, the people who you hear that are like, “Oh, yeah, my second date, we went to, you know, Europe together.” Like, “What? What are you talking about?”
JS: Why.
AM: Also, your breakup story is gonna be epic.
JS: It’s gonna be so good.
AM: Do you hear that sometimes?
JS: You’re gonna be in Venice and you push him over a gondola into the water.
AM: I know. Like do you think about that sometimes where someone like tells you a story about like a date that they were on or something? And you're just like, “Wow. It's gonna be awesome when you guys break up.”
JS: Yeah.
AM: Not because you want them to break up. Just because like --
JS: Just because I know.
AM: -- that’s the tenor of the story.
JS: Because you went so high.
AM: Yeah.
JS: You have to come back so far down the road to lose.
AM: You super do. You super do.
JS: I think that was a good meet, cute, and breakup story in my opinion.
AM: It's a – it's a meet, cute, breakup epic.
JS: Yes. I like that quite a lot. All right, listeners, stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
JS: Wow.
Outro Music.
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil