Episode 378: Nightmare Creatures

Have you ever woken up from a nightmare and wondered: What’s that all about? You’re not alone! We dive in deep to the various monsters and spirits that people have been blaming their bad dreams on since the dawn of time!

Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of drug use, violence, death, broken bones, blood, animal death/injury, defecation, suffocation, abusive relationships and sex. 

Housekeeping

- TOUR: Get tickets for our Rolling Bones Tour! 

- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends getting tickets for the Rolling Bones Tour.

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- Call to Action: Check out Multitude’s newest member show, Big Game Hunger!

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Cast & Crew

- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin

- Editor: Bren Frederick

- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod

- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman

- Multitude: https://multitude.productions

About Us

Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.

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Transcript

AMANDA:  Conspirators, I have amazing news, Spirits is coming to a city near you with the Rolling Bones Tour, 7 cities, 10 days, end of March 2024. We are performing with your other favorite podcast, Join the Party as we play games, roll dice, make monsters, learn stories, and a whole lot more. Come see us on March 21st in Seattle at the Here-After. March 22nd in Minneapolis at Granada. March 24th in Chicago at Reggie's. March 25th in Boston at the Rockwell. March 26th in New York City at Littlefield. March 27th in Philly at the City Winery, and March 28 in DC at Atlas Brew Works. Get your tickets right now at spiritspodcast.com/live. That's spiritspodcast.com/live. You can see all the ticket links there and find the city that works for you. Spirits in your city, us buying drinks, drinking the drinks, talking about stories. Gosh, we're so excited. We're coordinating our outfits already, Julia and I cannot wait. When you're rolling the bones, your future is looking good. Join us.

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AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.

JULIA: And I'm Julia. And Amanda, what does your average or if you don't have an average one, your most recent nightmare look like?

AMANDA: Oh. Wow. What a start to the morning. I typically have nightmares that are mundane in nature. So something that I will experience in daily life or need to experience later that day or week that's on my mind, like packing for a trip or renting a car, or, I don't know, sending an email that's stressing me out. And I will do it in my mind and be like, "Wow, this is unpleasant." And then wake up and have to do it again.

JULIA: Yep, that feels right. We've— we've talked about— you're very— and I mean this in a nice way, not like a negative way, a very mundane dreamer.

AMANDA: Oh, yes, I am.

JULIA: I am a extremely vivid dreamer. Though, I'm realizing now the older I get, the more realistic my nightmares become.

AMANDA: Well, Julia, that's because your— your problems are more weighty and regular.

JULIA: Yes. Like I used to have— like, you know, getting chased by Godzilla through the streets in Manhattan nightmares when I was a kid. Or the reason I don't like the Grinch is because I used to have nightmares of him chasing me around town.

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: Nowadays, it's like, oh, you know, someone said something mean about me online or stuff like that kind of nightmares. Though, occasionally, I still get like a weird— like, either serial killer one or like Giger-esque dreams sometimes of just like very terrifying, like giant Cthulhu-esque monsters, you know?

AMANDA: Oh, damn. I will occasionally have nightmares set in sort of a shared universe or my— my brain will return to familiar settings, where there's some kind of, like, infrastructural nightmare, where I, like, can't get where I'm going, or I can't get an answer that I need, or there's something like wrong with, you know, one of my loved ones and I can't, like, access them. And occasionally, those settings will feel familiar and I'll wake up like, "Damn, another one. Shit."

JULIA: I'm gonna call that the MDU, the McLoughlin Dream Universe, is that good?

AMANDA: Yep. That's great. And I hope never to visit there again. But I know I will.

JULIA: I mean, the dream for all of us. But, like, the thing is, Amanda, like, nightmares have been something that have plagued humanity since the dawn of our species, you know? We know that other animals dream and therefore are also capable of having nightmares. But that's also like such a fascinating thing, right? Like dreams themselves are so weird, and such a cool thing that our brains do, that, of course, this kind of idea that they're somehow connected to the divine or the supernatural makes a lot of sense, right?

AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, they are full-on vivid hallucinations while we sleep, and occasionally, accompanied by, you know, talking, or walking, or movement, to the extent that somebody else observing us would be like, "What's going on here?" So it, again, makes all the sense in the world that we would assume that the— these have some kind of meaning. Whether it's malevolent interference in what we think and feel. It certainly feels that way sometimes, where I'm like, "Really, brain? Like, again? I'm— I'm not dealing with enough right now, come on." Or it is something prophetic because they feel so real, they feel indistinguishable from actual experience, and memory, and fantasy. And it continues to sort of mystify, amaze, and terrify me how little we know about the brain.

JULIA: Yeah. One of my favorite tropes is, in general, like someone has a dream where someone does something to them, and they wake up mad at that person and be like, "I can't believe you did that." And they're like, "When did I do that?" "In my dream last night." "It was a dream. Why are you mad at me for a thing that I didn't do that your brain made up?"

AMANDA: It's one of the— the ways that I feel most like my selfhood, and my body are separate entities. Like I can get that way if I'm, like, really trying to meditate, you know, or like, really into yoga for the day. I'm thinking like, "Wow, like I— you know, the— the me that I think of and conceive of is separate somehow from this biology and I can, you know, control my emotion via my breath and whatever." But nightmares are just like, "I'm sharing this body with something else." And it's, you know, maybe my neurons firing, but that just feels— I don't know, it's why I don't do drugs, really. Why I don't do, like, hallucinogenics because I'm like, "I— I have enough of a tenuous hold on reality right now?" No— no shame, no judgment. It's just not for me, because I feel like I had those experiences enough with my brain, foisting me into situations that I— I don't want to be in.

JULIA: I'm realizing now that, like, dreaming and nightmares, going to sleep, in general, is like leaving a toddler alone, and your brain is the toddler, and they just get up to shenanigans.

AMANDA: Yeah. Eric and I describe this sometimes as like your brain having zoomies. Your brain is being like, "Aaah!" And— and just like doing all kinds of stuff while you're sleeping. But

I'm fascinated, Julia, to know about how we've kind of constructed and thought about nightmares, which— does it have any relationship to the word for horse, like mare?

JULIA:  Ooh. Amanda, I was just about to say, Amanda, I know you love etymology.

AMANDA:  Yes.

JULIA:  Do you know specifically why it is called a nightmare?

AMANDA: I sure don't.

JULIA: We get the word specifically from an old English word Mare, which I will say is distinctly different in origin from the same word that we use for female horses.

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA: Mare comes from a proto-Germanic word, Maron, which itself is from an Old Norse word, Mara. Now, these words all seem to derive, according to scholars, from a word that means to crush, or press, or oppress.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: But the word, since the Old Norse at least, has been used to describe a spirit, one from Germanic and Slavic folklore that is said to squat on the chests of people while they sleep, bringing them nightmares. So we quite literally get our word for nightmares from a creature from mythology. How cool is that?

AMANDA:  Absolutely incredible. I would love to hear more about them.

JULIA: Let's get into it. So the mare in the more modern depiction, as a not ancient like post-Christian coming from Europe thing, is a kind of Gremlin-looking guy. I'm gonna send you a painting. This is called The Nightmare by Henry Fuseli from 1781, just to give you an image in your head.

AMANDA: This guy, yes.

JULIA:  Uh-hmm.

AMANDA:  A little— a little, like gargoyle goblin-esque dude, sitting on the chest of a— a lady laid out on a fainting couch, looking very—

JULIA: Yeah. Kinda like squat, kind of child-size creature. It's got pointed ears, it's kind of like—

AMANDA: Yes.

JULIA: —hairy/furry. It's perched on the chest of the sleeping woman. I also— every time I look at this painting, I have to point out the horse.

AMANDA: Oh, yeah. No, that's a scary horse. Eyes rolled back to show only the whites or maybe looking off very to the side. Yeah, wow, didn't— didn't see the horse on first glance, unusual for me.

JULIA:  Perhaps the scariest horse, I think, that's ever been painted.

AMANDA: Hmm. Hmm, hmm, hmm. Looking a lot like a devil. I mean, the horse is scared. I don't want to shame the horse for being scared, but the horse makes me scared, also.

JULIA: The horse looks like a little pervert watching this happening.

AMANDA:  It does. And I do think when I— when I zoom in here, that the horse's eyes are looking off to the side, not like rolled back in its head.

JULIA:  Uh-hmm.

AMANDA: The horse— it has a sort of like ghoulish smile. Yeah, this is probably the worst horse I've ever seen.

JULIA:  Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to share that with you. The picture itself is very—

AMANDA:  Well, thank you.

JULIA:  —enlightening, and then there's that horse and you're like, "Hmm. Okay, interesting, interesting."

AMANDA:  Yep. Sorry. Now, I'm just imagining me walking up to that painting in a museum that I didn't know it was there and just being like, "This pervert." And everyone in the gallery looks at me like, "Excuse me?"

JULIA:  You— don't you see the pervert horse? Come on. He's right there.

AMANDA: Look at it.

JULIA: Alright. So the first written reference to the mare is in Scandinavia, and we can see that it has like kind of always been this monstrous creature since at least the 13th century. So this comes from a Norse saga of a king who has abandoned his wife. He told this woman that he was going to return within 3 years after they were married. After 10 years, had not returned yet, which, in my opinion, is a very reasonable amount of time to wait before seeking revenge.

AMANDA: Yeah. No, that— that feels about right. Like, you— you have time— three times over to fulfill your promise, and either I'm going to assume you're dead, or go forth and revenge.

JULIA:  Right. And at this point, she had heard that he was not dead.

AMANDA: Ah.

JULIA: He was just fucking around in another country.

AMANDA: Yeah, no that's totally fair.

JULIA:  So, she decides she wants to get revenge. So she reaches out to this Finnish sorcerer Hopa, who conjures the mare to exact revenge on the king while he sleeps.

AMANDA:  Love the idea that like, "Not even your dreams are safe from me, sweetheart."

JULIA:  Yes, exactly. So in this case, the creature seems to be kind of like invisible, can only be seen and felt by the king, who— he goes to sleep, and then he starts like, crying out in his sleep, that like, "Oh, I'm being ridden by this mare." So the servants rush in to help their king, they try to hold his head, and the creature start stomping on his legs until they're broken.

AMANDA: Oh, no.

JULIA: When the servants see that, like, the legs are getting injured, they try to hold on to the legs, so the creature moves up to the king's head and smothers him, killing him, and giving his wife the revenge that she asked for.

AMANDA: Oh, shit. I didn't even know that mares could hit your corporeally like that.

JULIA:  Oh, yeah, yeah. So not only are they kind of giving you these nightmares, they are, like, invading your dreamscape, so to speak.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA:  But they are also like capable of putting like physical pressure on your body to the point where it can kill you. And that's kind of where we're getting that sort of Old Norse word, which means like to press, or oppress, or smother, you know?

AMANDA: Oh, wow, yeah.

JULIA: So they're doing that from the beginning, that's where we're getting the name from.

AMANDA: And Julia, don't people sort of report feelings of being bound or pressure when they experienced sleep paralysis occasionally?

JULIA: Yes, absolutely. So for people who have not experienced sleep paralysis, or have never heard of that before, it is really this like idea of you're kind of locked inside your body for a moment where— especially like when you're on the precipice in between sleeping and waking. And a lot of times people will not be able to move their bodies and will also experience hallucinations.

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA:  So a lot of times, when people talk about like— for example, we have a lot of stories about, like, shadow figures that people see when they wake up from their sleep and stuff like that, in our hometown, urban legends. A lot of those are probably associated with the phenomenon of sleep paralysis.

AMANDA: Fascinating.

JULIA: Yeah. So it's very likely that human beings, as long as we've been having nightmares, have also been experiencing sleep paralysis, and it's like a fairly common thing. Like, some people will get it, like, very routinely, while other people will, like, have it for a short time and then kind of grow out of it. Sometimes children in particular experience more sleep paralysis than adults do. It's like a really interesting just like phenomenon that our brain does to our bodies.

AMANDA: Because it's a jerk. Brains can be jerks.

JULIA: Brains can be jerks. I wish my brain was less of a jerk. So, okay, even like kings can fall victim to these creatures, it can literally kill you. They can be summoned by sorceresses and witches, and stuff like that. But at the same time, like from around the same period and in Scandinavia, there's also this association between the mare and fetches. Have we talked about fetches on the show before?

AMANDA: I don't think so.

JULIA: We might have talked about the— the concept, but not with the name fetch. But fetch is basically like an apparition, or like a supernatural doppelganger that is considered an omen of death, where you to see your own.

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA:  So, like, a lot of cultures will be like, "Oh, you know, I had a dream where I saw myself lying in a pool of blood on the battlefield the day before a battle." And they're like, "Well, you're gonna die because you saw that in your vision." You know what I mean the Morrigan, for example is really associated with fetches, like seeing your own clothes being washed with bloodstains on them by the Morrigan—

AMANDA: Oh, sure.

JULIA: —is considered, like, you know, kind of seeing that omen of death approaching.

AMANDA: So it's like a doppelganger in the sense if you're seeing yourself from outside yourself. It's not like a— a creature, or an image, or like a belonging that's representative of you. It's more like literally seeing your death.

JULIA:  Yes, literally.

AMANDA:  Got it.

JULIA:  And it's not necessarily even seeing your death, it's just seeing your, like, doppelganger or, like, self, that is a implication that you are soon going to die. Like, I think the— kind of it comes from the idea of, like, your soul has already left your body and you just haven't realized it yet.

AMANDA: No, it's really scary. And I know some people have sort of, like, POV dreams where they will be— you know, from an external perspective observing themself, but I've never had that, and that it would freak me the heck out to, like, see myself separated from my own perspective in a dream.

JULIA: Yes, it's— it can be scary. For sure. And this is a phenomenon that has been reported in mythology and in stories for a long, long time. There's a story from around the same period that we were just talking about, about a man who had a dream where he is riding a red horse that's feet never touched the ground. And so when he wakes up from this dream, he's like, "Oh, this is a good sign. Like, this is an omen of the gods. Like, I'm gonna, like, go into battle, and this red horse is going to, you know, take me there, and it'll be great." And his wife is like, "No, no, no, no, no."

AMANDA: No, my guy.

JULIA: This is a mare that sent you a fetch in your dreams, and the color of the horse, because it's red, is surely a sign of death because it means blood.

AMANDA: Damn. Sorry to tell you that, honey.

JULIA: Sorry to tell you that, honey. I did not have time to read the whole saga in which this story is featured, to see if this ended up being a bad thing. But given that it's a Norse saga, it's probably a safe bet that it did not end well for this man.

AMANDA: No. No, I'm sure did not.

JULIA: Like, safe bet.

AMANDA: Julia, I am going to Norway on my honeymoon in— in a couple months and—

JULIA: Exciting.

AMANDA: —I am going to look out for— for these creatures. And if Eric has a dream about me, or I have a dream about him, we're simply not going to talk about it.

JULIA: Yes, don't— just— just don't do it, just don't do it. So the mare did not only get up to dream-related shenanigans. In Sweden, and in Norway, it was believed that the mare would actually ride horses in the middle of the night. So that by morning, they would be, like, exhausted and covered in sweat rather than well-rested. Which like, obviously, for a farmer or someone like that, who relies on that horse for field work and stuff, not a good thing.

AMANDA: No, I would also be like, "What's wrong with you, sweetie pie?" Because if the horse has a fever, or the horse is sick, or the horse got out, that'd be bad.

JULIA: There's also a thing where it's like horses that are ridden and then you don't pull them down properly, they can get sick very easily, I think, is a thing.

AMANDA: Yeah. I— I'm not sure how true that is, but it is where we get the phrase like ridden hard and put away wet. You know, like you— you—

JULIA: You don't put them away wet.

AMANDA: You got to cool the baby down. You got to groom them, you got to make sure they're okay. I don't know if it's the same as like my mom insisting that I would die of a cold every time I went outside with wet hair without a hat in the winter, you know what I mean? I— I don't think that that part is true, but it certainly can't be good.

JULIA: Yeah. No, I don't— I don't think it can be. So the problem is not only are sweaty horses a sign that you've been visited by a mare in the middle of the night.

AMANDA: Julia, I gotta tell you Sweaty Horse is my favorite Kacey Musgraves remix.

JULIA: It's very good. It's very good. So they also had a habit of entangling the hair of a creature that they visited at night, whether that be a horse or a person.

AMANDA: No. Is this why Jonathan van Ness told me to sleep with my hair in a scrunchie?

JULIA: Well, that might be so that edges of your hair don't get too broken.

AMANDA: Sure, sure, sure.

JULIA:  That's why you wear a bonnet and stuff like that to protect very, like, delicate hair. Those are referred to as mare locks, Amanda.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: So if you wake up with particularly bad bedhead in the morning, it is very possible that you were visited by a mare in the night.

AMANDA: That's amazing. My hair is in— at a very strange medium length right now, it can barely get put up in a ponytail, but it is long enough to— to look pretty wild. So I'm— I'm waking up— I'm waking up with unprecedented bedhead every day, and now I am sure gonna think about mares whenever that happens.

JULIA: Well, if you have a nightmare and then also wake up with really bad bedhead, definitely a mare.

AMANDA: That's tough, that's tough.

JULIA: Which like, again, makes sense. Like, you're probably tossing and turning during a nightmare.

AMANDA:  Yes.

JULIA:  And so the likelihood that your hair is going to get even more messed up is high.

AMANDA:  That's fair. As long as I don't smell any sweaty horses, though, I— I think I'll be okay.

JULIA:  Well, fingers crossed. They're also out there, Amanda, tangling trees in the middle of the night with their riding. So if you were to see branches that have been kind of entangled with one another, it's because a mare has been riding them in the middle of the night as well.

AMANDA:  I see.

JULIA:  There's actually this phenomenon of these kinds of like weird-looking pine trees that grow in both Sweden and in Germany, mostly on like coastal rocks or in like very damp ground, that kind of results in them looking very twisted and kind of stunted. And in Sweden, they are translated as mare pines. While in Germany, they're referred to as the nightmare pine.

AMANDA:  That is incredibly metal.

JULIA:  Isn't that cool? Isn't that cool itself?

AMANDA:  Yes.

JULIA: Alright. So Germany's version of the mare is fairly similar to the Scandinavian version that we just talked about. Though, I did want to share, Amanda, please, try to contain your joy.

AMANDA:  Okay.

JULIA: A Westphalian prayer.

AMANDA: Whoa.

JULIA: That one would say before they went to sleep in order to ward off mares.

AMANDA: Explain to the people why I'm so excited, Julia.

JULIA: Well, Amanda and I love a musical called Candide.

AMANDA: Yes.

JULIA:  That is set in Westphalia.

AMANDA: Incredible.

JULIA: So this is like a little prayer that they would do before they went to sleep, kind of the like, if I lay me down to sleep kind of thing that we grew up probably saying.

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: But it was also sometimes written down on charms and one would keep it like near their bed to strengthen the ward against the mare. Would you like to hear the little prayer?

AMANDA: Please. Not me realizing today that Westphalia is a real place.

JULIA:  Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep.

AMANDA:  Did think it was a fake place made up for Candide. Okay, go on.

JULIA:  Okay. So here is the prayer the ward that one would say before going to bed. "Here, I'm lying down to sleep. No nightmare shall plague me until they have swum through all the waters that flow upon the earth and counted all stars that appear in the firmament."

AMANDA:  That's pretty good. That sounds like an excellent task to give a toddler before— like tire them out or prevent them from wanting to do, you know, something time-intensive.

JULIA: It's like counting sheep, except you're—

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: —like, "Alright, now count all of the stars, small child."

AMANDA: Yeah. Or, like, all the—

JULIA: Who probably can't get past 20.

AMANDA: Or all the many myths that are like, "Yeah, count every grain of sand, and then we'll talk."

JULIA: This is actually really interesting, because there are some other spirits that if you wanted to get rid of them, you give them an impossible task, and we'll talk a little bit about that on the later half of this episode. But I just put two and two together. I'm like, "Wait, that sounds like the other thing that I'm going to talk about later. Exciting."

AMANDA: Mr. Sandman. Love it.

JULIA: Now, we're gonna move on to the Slavic, specifically Polish Mare, which is known as the Mara. And it's really interesting because this is tied to this Slavic pre-Christian goddess named Marzana. Now, Marzana is tied to winter and the cold, but also to death and agriculture. So as you can imagine with those associations, she's kind of tied to the cycle of death and rebirth, and especially like the winter time part of that death and rebirth cycle.

AMANDA:  Totally.

JULIA:  And there's still, like, occasionally kind of these like celebrations that are references to Marzana even in the LOL, it's not pagan, it's fine generation that we're currently in.

AMANDA:  Yeah.

JULIA: But I think she's really interesting, and she's also strongly associated with dreams, which is where her kind of association with the Mare or the Mara comes in. So in Polish tradition, the Mara kind of has very various origins as to how they come to be, right? Sometimes it is the soul of a person who was wronged or died without being able to give their final confession. As you can tell, this is very like post-Christian introduction to Europe and really playing on the LOL, it's not pagan, it's fine tropes.

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: Sometimes it is the seventh daughter in a family, which I guess is particularly cursed, because then you have to pay the dowry on all those ladies and marry them off.

AMANDA: Damn.

JULIA: Sometimes it's people who have their names pronounced incorrectly when they're getting baptized, which is one of my favorite origins.

AMANDA: Incredible. That's a real— like, man, we love to find little loopholes like the Achilles heel style, that's the most prominent example to me, where like, "Oh, you forgot this one thing, therefore, you're fucked."

JULIA: Imagine becoming a Mara every time you go to Starbucks, and they get your name wrong.

AMANDA:  Yeah, that would be excruciating. But also, like, you probably just met that priest or you're, like, exhausted new parents. You're not gonna, like, correct the priest during the baptism, but I guess you would if this was a thing that could happen.

JULIA: Exactly. Exactly. So I like the idea that, like, this is the only time that you can question or correct people in power, is when you're like, "I don't want my child to become a Mara, so can you do that again, please? Can you do it correctly this time?"

AMANDA:  Insert here the GIF of Cirie Fields from last year's Big Brother saying, "Clean that shit up."

JULIA:  Another one of my favorite origins— well, not favorite, but most dramatic, is if a woman is promised to marry a man, but he marries someone else, the slighted woman becomes a Mara in the night to seek her revenge.

AMANDA:  Okay. I guess revenge is a good thing, but I'm like, why is the woman become a Mara, why—why can't the man haunt people in the night?

JULIA: I think this is a callback to that story about the king that we just talked about.

AMANDA:  Yeah. No, that's very true. And I guess— I guess it is a way to be like, "Okay, nothing in society allows me to have any agency and I'm somehow ruined because this man reneged on a promise. Okay."

JULIA:  Yeah. And— like, exactly. That's kind of like what we talked about with the episode with Fayge that we just had come out a couple of weeks ago.

AMANDA:  Yeah.

JULIA:  Where it's like women really had no recourse of getting justice, so this idea that they could get supernatural justice, it's kind of a nice thought.

AMANDA:  That's true. That's true. You're right.

JULIA:  The Polish Mara takes a little bit more of a twist than the previous ones, because they can transform into animals, instead of just being the creepy, little guy that we talked about earlier. So they can transform into cats and frogs. Sometimes they could also transform into, like, non-animal, like nonliving things. When they take these kinds of animal weird forms and not just the creepy, little dude that we talked about earlier, they will drain people of their energy and sometimes blood in the middle of the night.

AMANDA: Oh, okay. We wake up a little anemic and sad.

JULIA:  So before we head to the refill, Amanda, I gotta tell you the best practices to keep away the Mara according to Polish tradition. And I'm going to take them from, like, average/easiest to wildest, and you're gonna tell me if I correctly ordered these, alright?

AMANDA: Okay, this sounds good. Now, I live in a Polish neighborhood. I have a bunch of like Polish, you know, craft stores, bookstores, spiritual stores nearby, so if I need to stock up on anything, I'm just going to start making a shopping list.

JULIA:  Okay, excellent. So let's say mildest to wildest, alright?

AMANDA:  This is good. Yes.

JULIA:  Mildest to wildest, change your sleep position.

AMANDA: Okay, there you go. Confuse them, Julia. They don't know where my ear, or my eyes, my mouth, however, they get in there's going to be.

JULIA: Drink coffee before going to sleep.

AMANDA: Okay. Now, this one— this one, confusing. Maybe it'll keep me jittery, maybe I'll be so grateful or exhausted by the time I fall asleep that I will successfully not be able to be woken up by Mara, but this one I'm getting a little dicey.

JULIA: Okay. Sleep with a belt on.

AMANDA: Oh. Not comfortable, but I mean, I guess I could get it done.

JULIA: Throwing a noose at the creature, piece of a noose. Not a full noose, just a piece of noose.

AMANDA: I mean, I guess I could keep that next to my bedside to throw if need be. But I don't want to be going around making or buying nooses.

JULIA: Fair. Fair. How about inviting it to breakfast?

AMANDA: Oh. So, wait, I— am I aware or do I see it come in?

JULIA: I guess this is the case where if you wake up sleep paralysis style and you see it resting on your chest.

AMANDA: Okay. Well, then that's simply an excuse to cook a more elaborate breakfast than I otherwise would for myself, that's fine.

JULIA: Leaving a bundle of hay in your bed and going to sleep in another room, like a teenager sneaking out of the house.

AMANDA: Yeah, that's a— that's pretty funny. I think I would never get the hay out of my sheets or mattress is the problem.

JULIA: Yes. And then finally, smearing some poop on your front door.

AMANDA: Hmm. We're gonna— we're gonna— we're gonna not do that. We're gonna go ahead and— and not, but I do love that the Mare is like, "Hmm, too gross."

JULIA:  "Too smelly, don't like."

AMANDA: Can't smell the hay, can smell the poop.

JULIA: Alright. How was my order from mildest to wildest?

AMANDA: I think that's great. I think inviting it to breakfast is pretty entertaining, but I'd probably do that before throwing something at it, just because I— I like a conciliatory approach if I can manage it.

JULIA: I just thought the randomness of it kind of balanced it to go a little bit ahead of the— the noose-throwing, because like—

AMANDA:  That's fair, that's fair.

JULIA:  —throwing something at a creature that is doing you harm makes sense to me, but then inviting it for breakfast, I'm like, "Huh."

AMANDA: Wait, what?

JULIA:  "Okay."

AMANDA:  Well, listen, Poland, no one's more creative than you, so thank you.

JULIA:  There you go. Alright. So those are the Mares of our nightmares, Amanda. But why don't we grab a refill and talk about some other nightmare creatures from around the world?

AMANDA: Let's do it.

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JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. Let's start by thanking, of course, our newest patrons, Yun and Delainey. Thank you so much for joining us. You join the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons, like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. And of course, our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Jeremiah, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And hey, you can join them at patreon.com/spiritspodcast right now and get cool things like ad-free episodes, recipe cards, and so much more. Check that out at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I have a recommendation for you as well. And hey, it's just a recommendation as we've been doing, let's be honest. We want you to come see us live. We are doing a 7-city tour, that is Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington, DC. I did those off the cuff and I'm very proud of myself, just saying. And we're gonna be playing some really exciting fun games at these live shows. I'm sure you all love creepy or cool, but I do have some exciting new games that we're going to be playing. And hey, there might be a new game for each and every city. Wow. I am— I'm putting a lot of work into this, I'm not gonna lie to you. It's gonna be so much fun. So to get your tickets, go to spiritspodcast.com/live right now. And hey, we'll see you then. I also want to tell you about what's going on here at Multitude. And hey, have you listened to Big Game Hunger yet? Big Game Hunger is a weekly comedy show where Jenna Stoeber and friends craft the next big video game every episode. Starting with a randomly generated genre, concept, and vibe, Jenna and a variety of fun and game-obsessed guests will take these ideas far enough that they can actually pitch them to a shadowy board of rich investors if they want to. By the end of the episode, they'll have honed an IP so irresistible that you'll be ready to risk $25 for it on Steam. And I have to tell you, there's been several games where I message Jenna kind of mad, being like, "Well, now I want to play that game and it's never gonna exist." So that's my— my selling pitch for you. Get ready to laugh about games that you love, learn about game trends, and yearn for titles that will surely never make their release date. You can find Big Game Hunger wherever you find your podcasts and there are new episodes every Monday. And finally, we are sponsored by Shaker & Spoon. Shaker & Spoon is a subscription cocktail service that helps you learn how to make handcrafted cocktails right at home. So have you ever wanted to be a mixologist like in the comfort of your own home? Shaker & Spoon is the subscription cocktail service for you. Every box comes with enough ingredients to make three different cocktails developed by a world-class mixologist. All you need to do is buy one bottle of that month's spirit, whether it's rum or gin or whiskey, et cetera, and then you have all you need to make 12 drinks at home. At just $40 to $50 a month, plus the cost of the bottle, this is a super cost-effective way to enjoy craft cocktails. And you can skip or cancel boxes anytime. It's really very easy. I'm not really a brown liquor kind of gal, so when I saw that their next month was going to be a bourbon box, I was like, "Hey, I think I'm just going to skip this one for this month." And then they were totally cool with that, very easy. So invite some friends over, class up your nightcaps, or be the best house guests of all-time with your Shaker & Spoon box. Get $20 off your first box at shakerandspoon.com/cool. That is shakerandspoon.com/cool. And now, let's get back to the show.

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JULIA: Amanda, we are back from our refill. And did you know that there's already a pretty classic cocktail out there called The Nightmare?

AMANDA: I didn't but, you know, that does not surprise me. It feels like a thing that you— you know, you put one elbow on the bar and you say, "A nightmare, please."

JULIA: A Nightmare, please.

AMANDA: Then the bartender says, "Ma'am, you're not Marilyn Monroe." And I say, "That's okay."

JULIA:  They say, "Ma'am, we do not carry the fortified French wine, Dubonnet."

AMANDA: Okay, tell me— tell me about it. What am I drinking here?

JULIA:  Alright. So it's gin, French fortified wine called Dubonnet, cherry liqueur, not like too cherry, but cherry liqueur, orange juice, and a dash of orange bitters.

AMANDA:  Oh.

JULIA:  I don't think it's much of a nightmare of a cocktail. I don't— it's not particularly like overly cherry-flavored. It's a really nice balance of kind of sweet and bitter, that is pretty nice. Overall, solidly balanced cocktail. So the next time that you want to feel like a nightmare, but you don't want to drink that tastes like it, I think try the Nightmare Cocktail. And you can find the recipe on our Patreon by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast.

AMANDA: Wow. Along with recipe cards, alcoholic and non-alcoholic, for every single of the 377 episodes that come before this.

JULIA: Exactly. Alright. So we've talked about the mare behind the nightmare, but they are not the only supernatural creatures that are associated with bad dreams. So for this back half of the episode, we're going to talk about some other ones from around the world. To get us started, I feel like it would be remiss for us not to talk about the Baku, which is something that we've talked about on the show before, but it is so tied to dreams and nightmares that I— I just had to talk about them, you know?

AMANDA: Never a bad time to revisit the Baku.

JULIA: Exactly. So for those of you who don't remember, the Baku is a yokai. It's a very odd-looking yokai because supposedly, they were made up of all the spare bits that were left over after the gods made all the other animals.

AMANDA: And yes, we— we are saying that it's an odd-looking yokai even compared to what some yokai look like, so this—is this is really out there.

JULIA: Yeah. So they have the trunk of an elephant, ears of a rhino, tail of a cow, body of a bear, paws of a tiger. And what they're actually doing is describing the Malaysian tapir, but that's besides the point, it's fine.

AMANDA: I— I mean, it's also—it also looks like a forgotten or odds and ends creature with— with much love to the tapir, yeah.

JULIA: They're so silly. I love them so much. Anyway, so for the most part, Baku, a pretty positive creature compared to the mare. They feed on bad dreams rather than bringing them to people while they sleep. However, there is a little problem, because if someone was to call on the Baku too often to eat their nightmares, the Baku starts to become much more hungry for even more and more, and it will eat their positive dreams as well, which leaves the person feeling unmotivated and unfulfilled when they wake.

AMANDA: An important lesson in— in moderation, and self-soothing, and, you know, reaching out for help but not too much because, you know, you can't depend on it totally.

JULIA: Yeah. The Baku, in particular, is usually, like— it's a creature that visits children because children will call on the Baku to eat their nightmares. So it's like kind of teaching children being like, "This is a worst-case scenario thing. It's— it's okay to ask for help. But if you ask for too much help, then you're not able to do the things that you love anymore."

AMANDA: It's good, sweet.

JULIA: Yes, it's not— not a bad lesson to learn for a child.

AMANDA: For sure.

JULIA: Unlike the sweet baby boy Baku, who means very well. The Philippines has an ancient spirit that is much more close to the mare. The Batibat is a grotesque female creature that lives in trees, kind of like a— a version of a Dryad, I would say, where it's like a— a spirit that is connected to a specific tree.

AMANDA: Oh, so like within— within the structure of the tree itself, not like living in the branches?

JULIA: Yes. No, they, like, have a specific tree that is theirs.

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: For the most part, they live in those trees, not disturbing anyone or anything like that. But when their tree is cut down, especially for like building houses—

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA: —that is when they become malevolent.

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: So they will follow the tree to the home that is being built, or repaired, or what have you. And it will do whatever it can to stop humans from sleeping near the wood that their tree used to be.

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA: If a person tries to sleep near it, the Batibat will wait until they fall asleep and then will begin to suffocate their victim. They will invade their dream space, give them nightmares, as well as cause sleep paralysis, and sometimes even waking nightmares.

AMANDA:  Yeah. No, I— I would simply never cut down a tree.

JULIA: Yeah. And, like, even if you, like, hire a builder, who then does that, the builder is not the one being blamed, you're still being blamed.

AMANDA: Nope, they don't have to live there.

JULIA: You're just like, "Alright. And I'm gonna sell this house, and I'm never gonna do it again."

AMANDA: Uh-uh.

JULIA: If you were to experience an attack from a Batibat, you must either bite your thumb or wiggle your toes in order to ward it off, which seems very like basic and easy and stuff like that. But consider for a second, like, one of the big things that they tell you when you are experiencing sleep paralysis is to, like, attempt to be aware of where your body is, and be aware of, like, what your body can and can't do. So trying to wiggle your toes, for example, is a good way of trying to come out of sleep paralysis. So it's very interesting that, like, that's the advice that they give, given that the Batibat is connected to sleep paralysis.

AMANDA: Fascinating.

JULIA: Isn't that so cool?

AMANDA: Again, Philippines, no one goes harder than you.

JULIA: We love it. It's— if you look at photos of it, it's scary.

AMANDA: Yeah, I won't, but I appreciate the offer.

JULIA: Amanda, great choice. Alright. So there are a couple more flavors of nightmare and dream spirit that come out of Europe as well. One of them is the Liderc, which is a supernatural creature from Hungarian tradition. So a Liderc is an example of, actually, one of my favorite tropes, which is like normal thing gives birth to super weird creature.

AMANDA: Okay. That's a trope you like because it hits you to the core and scares you, or it's just like full of dramatic potential?

JULIA:  Full of dramatic potential, and just kind of fun.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: Like for example, like the basilisk is one of those where it's like it's a chicken egg, but it was hatched by, I think, a frog or something.

AMANDA: I see.

JULIA: And therefore, becomes the basilisk.

AMANDA: Right on.

JULIA: Cool. Right? So a Liderc is said to be the first egg of a black hen, which is kept warm under the arm of a human.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: Example number one, or a black hen's egg that is hatched in a pile of manure.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: No matter how this creature is born, it will eventually transform into a spirit that resembles a person, not a chicken, surprisingly.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: And it will basically, like, imprint and attach itself to the person that hatches it, and wants to be its lover.

AMANDA:  Oh. Interesting.

JULIA:  In a lot of these stories, the person who is doing the hatching is a woman, and so the creature transforms into a man, which will sit on her body and suck her blood while she sleeps, which makes her weak and withers her away, and also plagues her with nightmares.

AMANDA: Yeah. This sounds like a very interesting and, like, detailed explanation for any of a number of, like, wasting diseases, right? Whether it's like—

JULIA: Uh-hmm.

AMANDA: —anemia, tuberculosis, or like anything else that might be impacting someone. But I— I think that's fascinating, the sort of like twining together of, like, sexual desire and the sapping of energy.

JULIA: Yeah. I also think a really interesting analogy for abusive relationships.

AMANDA: Hmm. Totally.

JULIA:  It's really interesting, it is so inherently tied with nightmares. Actually, the Hungarian word for nightmare comes from a, like, direct translation for the pressure on a body from a Liderc sitting on a person's chest.

AMANDA: Oh, shit. Wow.

JULIA:  That's really cool, right? It means like Liderc pressure is the direct translation for nightmare in Hungarian.

AMANDA: Absolutely incredible etymology. It feels, though, doable not to let your black chickens roost near manure, or ever put an egg under your own arm.

JULIA:  Now, Amanda, you're absolutely correct, because that's like a thing that wouldn't just like randomly happen, you know? It seems like something that you would—

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: —want to set out to do.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: And that is very much the case, because in exchange for the nightmares, and the blood, and the energy-sucking that's happening here, the Liderc will hoard gold and will make its partner rich.

AMANDA: Oh, there it is.

JULIA: So if you were to, you know, create a Liderc and you were then able to accumulate a bunch of gold, it might be worth it in exchange for the nightmares in the blood and the whatnot.

AMANDA: Interesting.

JULIA: But you are also able to rid yourself of the Liderc, which you can do by, and I mentioned this before, persuading it to perform an impossible task.

AMANDA: Yay.

JULIA: Which it will attempt to do until it withers away.

AMANDA:  That's pretty good. Like count every blade of grass or, you know, pluck every piece of hay from the barn floors, something like that.

JULIA: I think one of the examples they gave was, like, trying to rope sand.

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA: Which I think is kind of fun. And you're like, "Can't do that. You're absolutely right, you cannot do that."

AMANDA: Nope.

JULIA:  Alright. So one of the last ones that I want to talk about is the Pesanta, which is from Catalonia.

AMANDA:  Ooh.

JULIA: Now, the Pesanta is an enormous black dog, super hairy, most notable for its steel paws that are covered in holes.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: The paws make him extremely dangerous, because one blow can kill a man. However, because of the holes in his paws, it's impossible for him to grab anything.

AMANDA:  Oh, little guy, oh, no.

JULIA:  So he's very frustrated by that.

AMANDA: I mean, I— I too will be frustrated.

JULIA:  So it is said that he lives in abandoned churchyards, which actually kind of strikes me as maybe a reference to the church grims, which we've talked about in previous episodes before.

AMANDA:  Yes, indeed. Big, black dog living by a church.

JULIA:  Living by a church, but if church abandoned maybe turns into the Pesanta.

AMANDA: Hmm. I don't like it.  And the holes in the— in the paws actually perhaps a reference to, like, stigmata. I don't know, maybe there is a— a sort of Christian tie into this.

JULIA:  Very possible, very possible. A lot of these ones, you know, pre-Christian origin, but then survived through Christianity.

AMANDA:  Syncretize, yeah.

JULIA:  And so we see a lot of, like, the— the synchronization. So he will sneak into towns at night. He will slip through any hole that he can find, keyholes, under doors, gaps, and walls, et cetera, et cetera.

AMANDA: Hmm.

JULIA:  And will try to find sleeping people, right? So he will then sit on their chest, causing them to suffocate, and plaguing them with nightmares. Again, like the— the beats are all very similar, which I think is kind of cool. And again, shows that kind of through line of this was a physical thing that people have been experiencing since people were people.

AMANDA: Uh-hmm.

JULIA: And, like, have created stories for. I love the kind of globalness of this.

AMANDA: 100%.

JULIA:  If you were to wake up while the Pesanta is there, you will see as it flees, that it's just like a shadow streaking across your walls in the shape of a dog, which is very cool and very scary, and again, very sleep paralysis, hallucination-based. There are ways of warding off the Pesanta, mostly it's spreading millet on the threshold of your bedroom.

AMANDA: Oh.

JULIA: Or placing a broom next to your bed, which will manage to ward it away.

AMANDA: A prune?

JULIA:  A broom.

AMANDA: Oh. I was like, "Oh— oh, I could do that."

JULIA:  I could put prunes there, easy. Also, a broom is very easy to put next to your bed, so—

AMANDA:  It is. Does the dog get, like, distracted and play with it? That's really cute.

JULIA:  No, I think it's more to do with— you know how like witches are associated with brooms and the sweeping away of evil spirits—

AMANDA: Sure, sure.

JULIA: —from the threshold? I think that's very much the— the same origins of that.

AMANDA: Well, you'll need it to sweep up all the millet that you have to put on your floor day in and day out.

JULIA:  Oh, God. All that millet just spilled everywhere. So listeners, you know, next time you have a nightmare, keep in mind that you might be plagued by one of these nightmare creatures that has decided to target you. Very likely that that's the case. It's good news, because there's lots of ways of warding them away. It's either that, or according to scientific research, you might just be stressed out.

AMANDA:  Yeah.

JULIA:  Studies conclude that nightmares are directly correlated with stress in your life. So maybe like a little bit of meditation or relaxation before falling asleep will help you avoid a visit from one of these nightmare creatures.

AMANDA:  I wish uninterrupted, undisturbed sleep for every conspirator listening. And I wish to adopt the next Pesanta I see. I have a great deal of fondness for this creature. I love him.

JULIA:  I love him. He can bring me all the nightmares he wants.

AMANDA: That's okay.

JULIA:  It's fine with me.

AMANDA: That's okay, little sweetie.

JULIA:  Also Amanda, hey, eating cheese before going to bed, does not cause nightmares.

AMANDA: Hey.

JULIA: Eat all the cheese you damn well please before bed if you want.

AMANDA: A PSA from Spirits Podcast.

JULIA: PSA from Spirits Podcast, Charles Dickens lied to you.

AMANDA: Charles Dickens lied about everything, okay? That's fine.

JULIA:  He lied about a lot of stuff, so don't listen to Charles Dickens. Eat as much cheese as you want and you will not be plagued by nightmares.

AMANDA:  Cool. And next time, you see a millet in the grocery store, remember—

JULIA:  Stay creepy.

AMANDA: —stay cool.

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