Episode 255: The Conjuring and Haunted Houses (Myth Movie Night)
/We’re talking demons, haunted houses, and horror tropes as we watch 2013’s The Conjuring. And asking the important question: How long would YOU live in this haunted a house?
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, misogyny, mental health/mental illness, violence against women, animal death, possession, suicide, murder, child endangerment, drowning, child death, human sacrifice, home invasions, colonialism, and body horror.
Housekeeping
- Live Show: Join us October 27th at 8:00 EST for a LIVE virtual show! Get your tickets at spiritspodcast.com/live!
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Australian Survivor. Julia recommends the Paranormal Activity movies.
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this Episode 255: The Conjuring and Haunted Houses for Myth Movie Night.
JULIA: Happy Halloween, y'all.
AMANDA: Happy Halloween.
JULIA: It's gonna be so much fun to get to talk about this. I really thought this was one, a great movie choice for us and two, a great conversation that we had about just, tropes that we find problematic and also the history of haunted houses.
AMANDA: And things that are fun, you know, Spirits podcast.
JULIA: Spirits podcast. We can love things critically.
AMANDA: And of course, if you are listening to this day it comes out, we are having a live show tonight. Can't believe it, I'm so excited. And whether or not you join us live or you join us later, you can get tickets at spiritspodcast.com/live. Even if you're listening to this, like, a year from now, you can go back and watch our Halloween 2021 Live Show, it's all good. We have both the live ticket and the video-on-demand. So, one ticket price gets you a live show and re-watching it as many times as you like after the fact.
JULIA: And whenever you want.
AMANDA: Whenever you want. You're like, "Hey. It's a, it's just some random day in January, the most difficult month of the year to get through. I wish it was spooky-season once again." Hey, let's, let's just rewatch the Spirits Live Show.
JULIA: Let's go back and check it out. We can relive our favorite moments.
AMANDA: Absolutely. I'm so excited to have it. And in other news, Julia, we have a new patron with us, Dirk. Thank you very much for becoming a patron.
JULIA: Hey, thanks Dirk.
AMANDA: And thank you to our Supporting-producer level patrons who support, sustains us not just now in the spookiest time of year, but all the time: Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, Theo, and Zazi. And the Legend-level patrons, Julia: Audra, Clara, Drew, Jaybaybay, Ki, Lexus, Mary, Morgan, Morgan H., Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: Every single one of you, I hope that if it is your dream and desire, you become famous paranormal investigators.
AMANDA: Mhmm. I can't recommend it enough.
JULIA: Speaking of can't recommend it enough, Amanda, what have you been watching, listening to, reading lately at this time, the spookiest of all times?
AMANDA: Julia, I'm just watching Australian Survivor. I wish I had a spookier wreck. I wish I had one that was, that was more on brand. I know I recommended recently doing Fall stuff. You should still do that, but also you can sit inside and watch Australian Survivor because it's really good.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's really good. It's really good. It's on Paramount Plus. It's really good.
JULIA: Absolutely an option for you. I recently watched the most recent Halloween movie, that's how I've been spending my time.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: And Jake showed me the Paranormal Activities for the first time, which I've been putting off because I thought that they would be boring. They're actually very good and a great commentary on how we should: one, Believe women, and two: Talk about mental health because not talking about it just makes it worse.
AMANDA: That's super smart. I love that.
JULIA: There you go.
AMANDA: And Julia, speaking of stuff to listen to, I think it is a great week for folks to listen to Head Heart Gut. If you're like, "Damn, I ran out of Multitude shows. Man, I wish I could listen to Julia, and Amanda talk and debate stuff more. And Moiya, and Schneider and everyone else in Multitude. I have great news for you. For five bucks a month, you can join the multi-crew. And that is a program that supports and sustains Multitude. Let us do interesting stuff. Let us start new shows. Might, might have some, some news on that front pretty soon. Who can say? And Head Heart Gut is our weekly friendly debate show, where we debate low stakes topic in a very, very high stakes way. It's super, super fun. And there's more than two years worth of weekly episodes for you to catch up on.
JULIA: This month was human organs, which I feel like is a great topic for the spookiest month. So, you can catch up on that and see just what the best innards are.
AMANDA: So fun. That's at multicrew.club. Also, link in the description, that's multicrew.club and join the Multicrew and listen to Head Heart Gut.
JULIA: Do it, Multicrew.
AMANDA: All right folks, that's all of our housekeeping out of the way, and we hope you enjoy Spirits podcasts Episode 255: The Conjuring and Haunted Houses.
[theme music]
JULIA: Listeners, and Amanda, Happy Halloween week.
AMANDA: Happy Halloween week. Julia, what are you doing to celebrate? I know you got tons of spooky movies lined up. I'm sure you have a haunted house or two to visit.
JULIA: Where, I think, we're going to go visit our friend's business, The Long Island Monster Gallery this week because--
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: --Halloween is on a weekend this year and we can do a little bit of spooky scary stuff, which is always really, really fun. What about you, Amanda? What do you got planned?
AMANDA: I don't know. I, I feel like I've watched my scary movie quotient for the year.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: After experiencing for the first time, The Conjuring.
JULIA: Yep, yep, because it is the spookiest week of the spookiest month, I figured it was the perfect time to do a Myth Movie Night. And because I wanted to watch a scary movie and I know that you hadn't seen this one before, I also wanted to, like, interrogate a common trope that we see in a lot of horror movies, which is the haunted house. So, this week we did in fact watch The Conjuring.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, what a time? I felt like I was both in on a joke and also missing it. And like, how have I missed this cultural artifact, but also how did this movie get made? I had so many thoughts and feelings. I was entertained every moment of this movie. And I did watch some of the major action at 1.5 Speed because it was quite creepy.
JULIA: I imagine it's almost creepier at 1.5.
AMANDA: Yeah, it wasn't a great idea. I wouldn't recommend it.
JULIA: [5:07] background, we'll do our, our quick summary. Sounds good?
AMANDA: Lovely, and as always, we save spoilers for the summary section only so you can fast forward if you haven't watched the movie yet.
JULIA: Yes, like Amanda. So, The Conjuring came out in 2013. It was directed by James Wan, who previously was well-known for both of the Saw and Insidious franchises. So, he definitely was not new to horror, but The Conjuring, I think, really did revolutionize the haunted house film genre. So, it stars Patrick Wilson and Vera Farmiga as the infamous paranormal investigators, Ed and Lorraine Warren, and it launched a franchise that, as of this recording, has eight movies with two planned for the future.
AMANDA: Wait, what?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yep, yep. There's a lot of them that are, like, in the universe of this and I don't think all of them have the Warrens, like, specifically featured. There was one, that was like, a La Llorona one, which was, like, just fine, and they've done a whole series on that creepy doll at the beginning. Annabelle,
JULIA: I was gonna say it really sets itself up for a cinematic universe of horror.
JULIA: It does. And that's the thing about the Warrens, which we'll get into a little bit later, is that they claim to have investigated, I think, over 100,000 different hauntings.
AMANDA: Oh my, that's too many.
JULIA: Yes. Like I said, this is a big franchise. This was the movie that launched it all, and it personally made me kind of fall in love again with the haunted house genre. So, let's get to our summary, shall we?
AMANDA: Julia, you have two minutes. Your time starts whenever you're ready.
JULIA: So, the movie opens with Ed Warren telling the story about how they got the Annabelle doll, which is honestly not particularly important to our plot, but it does establish that the Warrens are these paranormal investigators/demonologists. And then we hard cut to the Perron family, who just bought this old ass house, to house all five of their daughters. And it's immediately suspicious because the dog refuses to go inside. Shit goes bad pretty quickly. The clocks all stop at the same time in the morning. There's a weird smell. The girls see some weird shit. The mom keeps waking up with bruises. The kids play a creepy hide-and-seek clapping game. And the ghost apparently likes playing that too because they trap the mom in the basement. A very scary scene. Anyway, the mom decides to contact the Warrens, brings them to the house, and they're immediately like, "Yep, this place is fully fucked. We're gonna have to get some evidence of the haunting. So that they can go to the church and they'll let us do an exorcism on the house." So, while doing this evidence collecting, they find out that the main ghost haunting the house and the land is this woman named Bathsheba. Who's supposedly like a witch, who sacrificed her own baby and then died by suicide while cursing the land. And it's been hunted ever since. So, they start collecting this data but also at the same time, we see that the mom gets possessed by Bathsheba. The spirit attacks the family, not through the mom, not yet at least, and it's enough evidence to bring to the church. But the church is like, "Well, they're not members of the church. So, we're not sure what we can do. We'll see. We'll do our best."
AMANDA: He didn't baptize your baby, you didn't think about that, huh?
JULIA: There you go. None of them baptized. So, the family in the meantime, leaves to stay at a motel but the possessed mom kidnaps two of the kids and brings them to the house to kill them, but the Warrens and the dad get there in time and try to perform the exorcism. A very spooky scene in itself. Ed manages to condemn Bathsheba to hell or whatever. And the families are okay, and the Warrens are like, "Great. Another one for the books. The end." Except they make a reference to the house on Long Island and they still haven't made a new Amityville Horror movie in this universe, and that's bullshit. Okay, the end. Now for real.
AMANDA: Incredible. You still have 10 seconds left. Any, any final spoiler?
JULIA: I love Vera so much. She's so hot.
AMANDA: Her face looks like a Victorian ghost.
JULIA: It does.
AMANDA: And I mean that in the best way.
JULIA: It truly does, and she is great. And also her younger sister, Taissa, is also, like, kind of a modern scream queen. So, she's--
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: --very good as well.
AMANDA: Oh, nice.
JULIA: So Amanda, let's get into your thoughts about this movie.
AMANDA: Yeah. I'll say that, a) I, I think it's very well plotted. I liked the beginning. We really get into the action. The scene that you referenced in the basement was so creepy that I was like, "Man, where could it go from here?" Oh, Amanda from 18 hours ago, sweet summer child. It, it really could go a lot more places, but I had trouble at first establishing the timeline of this movie.
JULIA: Mmh.
AMANDA: Because I recognized actor faces obviously, you know, the, the lead too. One of the daughters I recognized from doing kind of other, you know, childhood media stuff. And I was like, "Wait, there's a projector, but also everyone's fashions look really realistic." Like, the, the house looks pretty new. No one has a cell phone. It's always something I look out for. And then, as soon as all of the kind of like, haunting documentation paraphernalia came out, I was like, "Ah, we are firmly in the early 1970s," because I can reference all of those, all of those tech very easily.
JULIA: You can tell by all the hippie outfits that they put the young girls in?
AMANDA: I mean, those are also back in fashion.
JULIA: That's fair.
AMANDA: So, you know, I, I can't really say, but I think for me, the tone of the movie was kind of challenging to put my finger on, but also that's not a bad thing. Like, it's, it's interesting for me to ask like, "What is this movie trying to make me think or asking me to consider?" And it really takes the Warrens' experience at face value. It's like, "Hey, this is what they have done. They are doing this, this is a textbook-demonic-possession." There is not a lot of, like, skepticism. Like, like you were saying in your summary, Julia. As soon as, you know, Mr. Warren walks into the house it's like, "Classic demon possession, man." And I'm like, "Whoa, okay." Like, there's no point at which everyone's like, "No, honey. You're just making it up." Like we get that over with very early. And it's a real good versus evil battle that I didn't really expect because we're used to, I don't know, maybe in more slashes or something like that. There's a lot more, like, people making bad choices when it's obvious to us, the audience, what's happening. That doesn't happen here.
JULIA: No, it really doesn't. I think part of that reasoning is because it is based on true accounts. And I think the fact that like you said, they take for granted the Warrens' perspective, because most of the documentation that we have of this event is from the Warrens' perspective. So, they wrote books about all of the different hauntings and, like, paranormal investigations that they did. So, we're really getting it from their perspective. And at this point, Ed had passed away probably eight years before this film came out, but Lorraine was still alive and actually was, like, a Consulting Producer on the film. And like has said in an interview, she's like, "I didn't let them take any, like, very specific liberties. Like, I didn't let them blow it over the top," which I'm like, "This is not blown over the top? Okay, great?"
AMANDA: What could they have exaggerated?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Exactly. So, I, I do agree with you, but, and it kind of does feel like sometimes in the movie, you're kind of getting thrown into the situation that they're in, rather than them being like, "Here's all of the background on Lorraine, and she could see ghosts from an early age," and stuff like that. But I think that they kind of thread it into the plot of the movie well enough that you're like, "Oh, okay. Lorraine can see things. Okay. They've been doing this for a while. They've known that they could, that she could do this since they were married, etc, etc.
AMANDA: Yeah, I didn't find myself, like, searching for more backstory. I kind of got it pretty solidly, except for why is this like, we didn't have any biographical details on the family whatsoever?
JULIA: Yeah,no.
AMANDA: It was a whole. It was all about the Warrens. It’s, like, family, lots of daughters. It's creepy. They move to the country, you get the picture. And at the end of the day, like, I was asking myself, like, "Is this a Warren Estate propaganda piece?" Like, it felt very much like it was funded or a project from that perspective, like you were saying, you know, very inarguably.
JULIA: Yeah. And again, I think that's because this is solely based on, like, the books and like, maybe a little bit of the family perspective, but it's mainly just written by the Warrens. So, that's what you're gonna get.
AMANDA: That makes that one line where they're like, you know, "We weren’t put out here to write books." It's very funny.
JULIA: A little bit funny, a little bit funny. So I think that we would be remiss to not talk about the, like, actual events that the story's based off of To start with, we can give a little bit of background on the Warrens. They were kind of considered controversial figures in their field. A lot of people like to discredit paranormal investigators and people who have the sight and stuff like that. A lot of people would say that they're like charlatans who are only sensationalizing tragedy and trying to make a profit off of it. But there are people who genuinely do believe that the Warrens were able to help people who are being haunted by the unexplainable. So whether or not I agree or believe in everything the Warrens published in their decades of paranormal investigation is kind of inconsequential in my mind. They are like well known public figures at this point, they founded the oldest ghost hunting group in New England, which is the New England Society for Psychic Research. They founded that in 1952.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: They reportedly investigated over 10,000 cases and their names are like attached to some of the most well known, "True haunted house cases." including but not limited to the Amityville Horror, which we've talked about in the show before.
AMANDA: Julia, that was the most, let's-insert-a-sequel-line I've ever heard in my entire life. I turned to my partner, Eric, and I was like, oh, man, I bet the Conjuring II is gonna be the Amityville Horror. It's not.
JULIA: They haven't done the Amityville Horror yet. And I understand like, there was that bad Ryan Reynolds one a while back, and that no one's really touched it since. But I feel like they would do such a good job with it.
AMANDA: It's asking for it. Come on, people.
JULIA: I know. Before the Amityville Horror, though, which took place in 1975, the Warrens were involved in what they called, The Witch Family, which is an investigation that would become this film, The Conjuring. So in 1971, The Perron Family, which they didn't change any of the names by the way, all those names are legit.
AMANDA: Wow, that was like the woman rattled off the daughter's names and I was like, Wow, man, that's a stack of names right there.
JULIA: Sure is. You got five daughters, you poor woman. So The Perron Family bought and moved into this farmhouse in Harrisville, Rhode Island. I think it was like an 18-room farmhouse or something ridiculous like that. It wasn't long until husband and wife Roger and Carolyn and their five daughters kind of started experiencing seeing signs that something was amiss. According to the family, the signs were small at first, things like brooms would go missing and then reappear in places that they certainly were not left in. Carolyn said that she would, like, clean the kitchen only to come back and find that there were small piles of dirt on the floor, which is, like, weirdly creepy in my mind. Like, little like graves.
AMANDA: Yeah, I hate that.
JULIA: Yeah. So, the girls also claimed to see people which they soon realized were spirits around the house. But argued, like, most of them are harmless. But there were angry Spirits in the house enough to drive Carolyn to start doing some research on her new home, which you always got a Google. I know, there wasn't Google in 1971, but you always got to Google your house before you buy it. You just got to do that.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or like walk around to nearby grocery stores and gas stations and be like, “Hey, that'll farm house over there. Anyone get murdered?”
JULIA: I mean, yeah, yeah, you do kind of have to ask that. I can't remember if Rhode Island is one of the states where they're like, legally, we have to tell you if someone was murdered on the property, but…
AMANDA: It seems like Rhode Island's whole thing is like, if you know, you know, and if you don't, you don't. So I, I doubt that. That's a rule.
JULIA: We're small enough that you should know, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: So Carolyn spent some time at the local library, which revealed that the home that they bought had been owned by the same family for eight generations.
AMANDA: Okay, Julia, what do you think of that? Do you think that would make it more or less likely that there is some suspect shit.
JULIA: I think that imprints a lot of a certain vibe onto a house.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: On the plus side, though, knowing that like, a lot of this stuff's probably all original as like, you know, just a potential home buyer. You're like, Ooh, yes. Okay. Owned by eight families, never been on the market in 200 years. I like that.
AMANDA: Yeah, I like that. But also, you're right. I think that if you're worried about kind of how the house feels about this transition, the more entrenched you know, the more likely I think it is that the house is like what's going on here and maybe ejects whoever comes in.
JULIA: A, an interesting thing that I will get to in a moment.
AMANDA: Oh, good.
JULIA: Same family for eight generations. However, there were several mysterious or horrible deaths in the family like a few of the families children drowned in the nearby creek. One had been murdered. Other family members had died by suicide in the home. So these were apparently the Spirits that were haunting the house, but they paled in comparison to the spirit of Bathsheba who the oldest daughter of the parent family and interviews Andrea, she said, "Perceived herself to be the mistress of the house and resented the competition my mother posed for that position." So exactly like you said, that transition did not go well.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: So according to the research that was done, Bathsheba Sherman which if your name is Bathsheba, I feel like you need a cooler last name than just Sherman
AMANDA: Or the, the Sheba to Sherman transition is a tough one.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Like, Bathsheba White.
JULIA: Especially like the Shiba, Sherman, the “B” in the middle kind of breaks up. If it was like She, Sherman. That would be fun.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I like that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So was in fact, a real person Bathsheba Sherman, there was no record of her death by suicide as the film kind of suggests. She was said to be involved with the death of a neighbor's child rather than her own as the movie mentioned, but she was never brought to trial for that death and was buried nearby after her death, like in a Baptist cemetery. So, like the whole, like, she was a witch that sacrificed her child we’re like, hmmm… probably not. So, the haunting manifested kind of similarly to what we saw in the movie. According to Andrea, the smell of rotting flesh was a common experience in the house. What we didn't see in the film was beds rising off the floor, only to slam back into the ground.
AMANDA: Oh, my.
JULIA: And the basement, which the movie makes pretty clear was kind of the epicenter of the activity where the family members, particularly, the father, Roger would feel a cold, stinking presence at his shoulder.
AMANDA: Oh, boy!
JULIA: So, the family only strayed into the basement to fix the heating equipment, which they said would often fail without warning or reason, which would leave the house freezing. Another, another classic, haunting sign.
AMANDA: Yeah, I was just surprised by how prominent smells were in the early days of this haunting, this haunting phase one, and I was like, aw, nice.
JULIA: Yes! What we don't see in the film is that the family lived in the house for 10 years like this, and that the Warrens made several visits rather than that one kind of climactic one that we saw portrayed in the film.
AMANDA: Oh, my.
JULIA: So, my question to you, Amanda is at what point do you move out of that house?
AMANDA: Yeah, I think I don't move into the house when the dog won't go in there.
JULIA: Hmm. But you've already spent the money on the house.
AMANDA: I say, "Too bad, sorry. Going to be a family of truckers and drive around the country with Raj."
JULIA: Just stick all over the back of the cab with a truck. And be like, "Alright guys."
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: Until someone else buys this house. We got to just ride up and down the coast.
AMANDA: Yeah, but I think unexplained bruises are a thing and, like, something that I was really surprised about is the, the mom was like, "Ah, yeah, some iron thing. Don't worry about it." But they only started when she moved there. So that, that's also you know, whether it is environmental, whether it's the water like, this is what, the late 60s? There's no EPA protections practically compared to what we have today. Like, I completely understand that they, that they legitimately don't have the, the means to, like, go somewhere else. But man Oh, man, would I be on my guard?
JULIA: Yeah, it's a lot. Also going back to the bruises thing. I wake up with bruises all the time. But also, like, I know, I'm clumsy and I bumped my legs into things all the time. So that's one thing. But she's like, getting bruises that specifically look like handprints grabbing her arm. Like, come on. Come on, guy.
AMANDA: No, it's, It's really scary. And we haven't even touched on that fucking music box, Julia.
JULIA: Oh, yes. I don't think the music box was real. I think that might have been like a fun thing that they added for the movie to add extra scares, and there's nothing creepier than old children's toys.
AMANDA: No, there sure isn't. And that I mean, the painted thing. I was just like, Oh, baby.
JULIA: Things appearing in mirrors behind you is also a very classic trope. So I feel like, they were like, we're just gonna add everything into this one.
AMANDA: Yeah, I feel like that's particularly scary because our animal brains, I feel, are somewhat skeptical mirrors to begin with.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Where you're like, oh, that's me. And then to like to see something behind you that you turn around and is not actually there. It's just man. It's the worst.
JULIA: Just a classic. It's so classic. I love it so much. I want to know what movie did that first?
AMANDA: Yeah, that's a good question.
JULIA: If you know that answer, let me know.
AMANDA: I'm sure some film student has done a PhD on stuff on the hauntings-behind-you-in-mirrors.
JULIA: Oh, I bet. So in terms of The Perron Family, the turning point, as you might suspect, was the possession of Carolyn. However, the family recounts that it wasn't like out of nowhere, kind of like we saw in the film. The possession actually occurred only after Lorraine Warren had brought the family together to conduct a seance to attempt to contact the spirits.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Which seems like a bad idea, Lorraine. Sorry, but it does.
AMANDA: Wow. Yeah, that wouldn't be my first step. If anything I expect like the meddling teen daughters to do that. But also, they're here for 10 years to all these kids just think this is normal?
JULIA: No, I have to imagine because they lived in another place before they lived here.
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: So I think they just kind of realized like, nah, this house is fucked up. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have contacted the, the Warrens, I feel like, you know?
AMANDA: I think there was some really good sibling shenanigan-ry here, just to interject, for a moment, because the idea that like, you yell at your sibling, like, "Oh, stop," and they're like, "I'm at bed." It's like, "No, you're lying," like it, it was, it was, was well depicted.
JULIA: I really like the one in that same scene where she's like, "Stop farting. It smells so bad."
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: Like, I don't have siblings, but I can imagine that's a real conversation--
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: --they would have. Yeah.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So, Carolyn gets possessed because of the seance. She started speaking in tongues, and I suppose kind of similarly to what we saw in the film, rose from the ground in her chair before being tossed across the room.
AMANDA: Holy shit.
JULIA: Yeah. So Ed's exorcism that we saw on the film, however, never happened. Lorraine Warren claims that he would never have attempted such a thing because only Catholic priests are able to perform a true exorcism. So like, the idea that he was like, "I guess I have to do it because no one else will."
AMANDA: I mean, I get why the film needed a climactic scene, but also it included him being quite clear on, like, need permission, it's a thing only done by certain people, like, that is not me. You know, that's not my role here. So, I was a bit surprised that they did both, but that makes sense in terms of the real life story.
JULIA: Yeah. And like you said, they definitely needed, kind of, the climactic ending for the film because the real life ending is not happy because basically the seance was the last time the Warrens were ever invited into the home again, because Roger was like, "You guys are fucking with my wife. I'm worried about her mental health. Please leave. You're just making things worse."
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So yeah, the Perrons and the Warrens, not a happy ending for them. And according to Andrea, the family continued to live in the house, unable to move because they did have, like, all their finances tied up into the house. So, they weren't able to move until 1980. No new owners have reported Spirits or hauntings as far as I'm aware. Though, it is worth noting that the previous owners of the house sued the director, James Wan, and Warner Brothers claiming that their property was repeatedly vandalized after The Conjuring came out. So, it seems like things were peaceful from, like, 1982 to at least 2013 when The Conjuring premiered, but they were like, "Yeah, people keep breaking in. We keep finding, like, satanic demonic items left in our yard, etc, etc." I'm just like, "Fuckin' teens." So ironically, the old farmhouse has recently gone back on the market. They're asking for $1.2 million.
AMANDA: Oh, my.
JULIA: Which includes a, over 3000 square foot home. As well as 8.5 acres of land, which for that amount of land, not an unreasonable price, but it did last sell in 2019 for $439,000.
AMANDA: That seems like an unreasonable price.
JULIA: Yeah, so the real question is, what is more haunted, the house or the fucking terrible housing market?
AMANDA: I know. Too true, dude.
JULIA: The previous owner, however, did seem to turn quite a profit before putting the house on the market. She has rented the house out for guest bookings and group events for those who want to potentially face the ghost of Bathsheba themselves, which begs the question, Amanda, would you ever do one of those kind of overnight ghost experience kinds of things?
AMANDA: Fuck no, man. The only place I'm sleeping overnight that is not a specific hospitality residence or my own home is a museum and God there's nothing more I want than to stay overnight in the museum.
JULIA: What about a haunted hotel?
AMANDA: Ah, I wouldn't go if it was advertised to be haunted I, I think.
JULIA: Mmh.
AMANDA: I'd be like, "You know what? No. If I need to visit you know, Savannah or wherever, I'll stay in a dwelling that does not promote itself as haunted." I just don't need to ask for it.
JULIA: Yeah, if your biggest selling point is "Oh, we're haunted."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Probably not a good hotel experience.
AMANDA: You know, I, I have enough trouble, Julia, with all my, all my allergies. All my, you know, sensitivities. I'm, I'm a delicate hothouse flower and I need earplugs and, like, not a top sheet and I need to be a little bit too chilly, but not too hot at all.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: In order to sleep. So, I, I don't need to, like, invite more variables.
JULIA: You know, the Millennium Biltmore when we stayed there, supposedly haunted.
AMANDA: I did learn that and you did say that immediately upon walking into the hotel.
JULIA: Yes, because I did a Google.
AMANDA: But I gotta say, I had a lovely time there. Except for almost getting trapped on account of COVID, but besides that, it was great.
JULIA: It was. It was still a lot of fun. So, now that we've talked about The Conjuring, the Warrens, and the Perrons, I think it's time that we examine the genre as a whole and talk about what it is about haunted house literature and films that keeps us coming back for more. Just as soon as we get back from our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: Amanda, I am not a sweets person but during, like, the Thanksgiving month I feel like it kind of crawls out of me like a strange beast and is like, "What if we had more cinnamon and sugar and pies and cakes?" And I'm like, "Huh. Okay, strange new being that exists inside of me. I guess we'll get some cake." And luckily, cake is the answer to every problem when that beast emerges from me and I can just order cake straight to my door from Milk Bar.
AMANDA: Absolutely. I feel like all of us have gotten more experience with food shipping and delivery over the last little bit, and I was so pumped to find out that Milk Bar wanted to sponsor the show, because being from New York going to NYU, Milk Bar in the East Village is like a neighborhood staple. I'm so happy to be able to recommend it to you all. They have bestsellers like their signature birthday cake, their compost cookie.
JULIA: Oh, my god.
AMANDA: The Milk Bar pie, which is a toasted oat crust and a gooey butter filling. God it's so good.
JULIA: It's so good. I've literally walked through a blizzard to get to the Milk Bar Pie before.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. It's so, so delicious and they are beautifully packaged, made fresh, and then flash frozen. So, they get to you and they're fresh as if they just came out of the oven. They have fast and even overnight nationwide delivery here in the US. So, whether you're ordering it for yourself or a loved one, or for a present, or for just any time at all you gotta do it. They sent us birthday cakes. It wasn't my birthday, but God I felt like it, it was so good.
JULIA: It was about my birthday. So, they really nailed it. They also have seasonal stuff like pumpkin Milk Bar Pie and Apple Cider Donut Cake. The Apple Cider Donut Cake, I cannot lie to you, is the quintessential flavor of Fall and you need to buy it for Thanksgiving. I'm telling you this now. Do it.
AMANDA: Right now, Milk Bar has a special limited time offer. You can get $10 off any order of $50 or more when you go to milkbarstore.com/spirits. You'll get 10 bucks off an order of $50 by going to milkbarstore.com/spirits.
JULIA: milkbarstore.com/spirits. Amanda, going to, like, new places which I'm finally starting to do again, you know, as this year's kind of coming to the close. It can be a little scary sometimes. Sometimes you're walking down the street you're like, "I don't know where I'm going really. I don't know what kind of neighborhood this is. I don't know what's going on here." It gives you a little peace of mind to have something that you know is going to keep you a little safer. So, I'm recommending She's Birdie this week. Birdie is a personal safety alarm that is designed to be easy to carry and simple to use. You can activate it with a quick pull. It emits a loud 130 decibel siren and a flashing strobe light to help deter attack, and also, like, so people around know something's up. And unlike something, like pepper spray or other deterrents, it doesn't do any danger to you so you can use it confidently without having to worry about it. And right now, She's Birdie is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase when you go to shesbirdie.com/spirits. Go to She's Birdie spelled s h e s b i r d i e.com/spirits for 15% off your first purchase. That's shesbirdie.com/spirits.
AMANDA: And finally, Julia, we are sponsored by Calm. This is the number one mental wellness app and gives you tools that improve the way you feel. Such as right now, deep breath in, take a deep breath out, relax your shoulders down, pull your shoulder blades together, do a little relaxation of your shoulders and neck. That's definitely where I carry my tension, and just ask yourself, "How are you feeling today?" If you're a little anxious, maybe you haven't been sleeping that well. Maybe you wish you could ask for help but feel like you don't deserve it or you're not allowed. Hey, you can. And Calm is a tool that can help you kind of build these little checkpoints into your day. They have guided daily meditations. They have curated music tracks to help you focus, and of course, help you drift off to sleep with their imaginative asleep stories read by actors you know and actors you should know because their voices are so damn calming. You know that I love a train. Look up any of their train stories. I can't recommend them highly enough. For listeners of the show, Calm is offering a special limited time promotion of 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/spirits. That's c a l m.c o m/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com/spirits. And now, let's get back to the show.
JULIA: So, to be honest, Amanda, this time of year and talking about very spooky things always makes me miss our old haunt the Jekyll and Hyde club.
AMANDA: Rip.
JULIA: Rip. So, I set out to recreate one of my favorite cocktails from there, which is the Sweet Poison.
AMANDA: Mmh.
JULIA: It's a little cliche, but it's like a coconut rum and pineapple juice concoction that just reminds me of our good old times. It tastes like Times Square, and that's all that matters.
AMANDA: I know. Add some microwave truffle oil fries, and you really just got everything you need.
JULIA: They were so good. You know what, and like for Times Square prices, and for it being an absolute tourist trap. They were heavy with their pours, and I appreciated that more than anything.
AMANDA: The drinks were heavy with the pours and after a round or two of happy hour two for one, frankly, 16 ounce cocktails. Those truffle fries went down easy.
JULIA: Yes, they did. Shout out, Austin. You are a good guy. I hope you're doing well. So, now that we've got these cocktails in hand, and we're reminiscing, let's kind of talk about the long history of the haunted house. So, just to kind of start this part of the conversation off and get us in the right mindset for haunted houses. I want to quote author and paranormal historian, Owen Davies, who once said, "The vast majority of people die inside their homes. So, in one sense, it is not surprising that many stories of haunted houses have been recorded over the centuries," which I think absolutely true.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: And much like we've talked about on the show before, Davies believes that because the home is where the dead are mourned, and where often are memories of them are, that is where their presence often remains. So, it's just again, this idea that ghosts are memories.
AMANDA: Make total sense.
JULIA: But let's start at the beginning. Amanda, when you picture a haunted house, what kind of house do you picture?
AMANDA: Oh, man. I think it's like a Victorian, you know, exactly both of that era, but also that architecture of like, you know, the high windows, the pointed peaks, that kind of thing.
JULIA: It's almost always a Victorian mansion, right?
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: Almost always, and that's for a good reason. So, if you're not familiar with Victorian houses, the name comes from a house that was built during the reign of the British Queen, Victoria. These houses, at least in the United States and on the Eastern Seaboard, are typically three story homes that use some kind of, like, wooden ginger red trims that embellish the outside of the house. And Victorian style homes in the US are kind of the larger umbrella for styles, like, Second Empire, Queen Anne, Shingle, Richardsonian Romanesque, just to name a few for you architecture nerds out there, you're welcome. But in the US, the style was popularized in the 1870s and then spread across the country to the west over the decade. Obviously, in the US, the houses are Victorian style, rather than Victorian era, but still extremely popular. But how did this extremely popular style of house from about 150 years ago become haunted in our minds? Do you want to take a guess?
AMANDA: Was it the rise of Gothic literature?
JULIA: Interesting. We will talk about Gothic literature a little bit later. Not so much that but more has to do with art history, which is my favorite thing.
AMANDA: Let's do it, please.
JULIA: All right. So, let's fast forward from the 1870s to the first half of the 20th century and Edward Hopper, which I know you'd like Edward Hopper, Amanda.
AMANDA: Love an Edward Hopper.
JULIA: So, Edward Hopper was a New York painter. He grew up in Nyack, which is, like, just on the Hudson. Just north of New York City. And his paintings, especially early on in his career, were focused mainly on architecture and cityscapes. So, one of his early paintings, which was painted in 1925, was one that was called House by the Railroad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Which is currently featured at the moment. I don't know if it's, like, on display, but I know it's in the MoMA's archives, at least here in New York City. And here is their description of it. "A late afternoon glow pervades Hopper's house by the railroad, which features a grand Victorian home. Its base and grounds, obscured by the tracks of a railroad. Hopper produces closely observed urban views, landscapes largely of New England, and interior scenes. All sparsely populated with figures or devoid of them entirely. Although he insisted his paintings were straightforward representations of the real world, they are often filled with an unmistakable sense of loneliness, estrangement, stillness, and mystery.”
AMANDA: Yeah. The vibe is like if you got up at, like, five in the morning and the sun is just rising and no one else is around, and you're like, "Wow, am I the last survivor after the rapture?" That's kind of what Hopper paintings do.
JULIA: That's exactly it. And there's something, like, truly haunting about a lot of his paintings. In particular, this one, the house looks creepy even if Hopper is trying to simply reflect reality. And it wasn't just Hopper too, there was Charles Burchfield, who was also, like, about 10 years later, painting similarly haunting Victorian style homes that look bleak, and like something out of a Halloween movie, and I'd love and appreciate them.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So, you have these paintings in the general consciousness, moving out of their popular period. Looking like haunting giants in neighborhoods that are becoming more and more modernized. Art historian, Sarah Burns, talks a little bit about this as well. Like, especially after World War I, why Victorian homes were, like, so maligned because they reminded returning soldiers of the once bright dreams of their Victorian fathers and was now only a stark reminder of what led the world to the Great War.
AMANDA: Okay, my bullshit detector is going off.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: A little bit . However, into it. Love a thesis statement. Love a bold claim, you know, let's keep it going.
JULIA: Okay. Well, what do you think of this quote from Sarah Burns? "Short of demolition, only extreme measures could exercise the ghosts, purge the presence of the deceased past, and sweep its filthy droppings from the land."
AMANDA: I mean, I respect a bold claim. That's what I'd say. Listen, did some people think that? Certainly. You know, like, that must have happened. Did the general cult, like, I, I don't know, I've been thinking about this so much as a complete tangent. But like, the ways in which the, like, we can just recite the facts of our life, and then let them stand in as a narrative or like, let those implications just go. Like, no one is there to fact check your own narrative of your life except for you. And it's just, it's so interesting how, you know, you can just say to somebody, oh, like you, you can give him the one or two sentence version of your childhood, and then they walk away with an impression of you that, you know, may or may not be true. I don't know, dude. It's just, it's so interesting. And, you know, living through history makes me feel like, how do we ever even really know what happened in the past, and how do we have impressions of eras? I don't know, man.
JULIA: I mean, that's the problem with first person narratives and telling history from a first person perspective, because the only evidence that we have of the past are these written documents. And a lot of the times that's not representative of like, what the actual past was, it was just representative of what that person was experiencing at the time.
AMANDA: Exactly. This feels like a poem to me, you know, where like, does it gesture at truth? 100%. Do I believe in every letter of it, or, or did the historian? Probably not. I'm here for it. I'm here for reading, group, kind of psychology and architecture in art history.
JULIA: Ooh, I'm very excited. Okay. So, Burns continues to point out that, like, this is how we start seeing Victorian houses in our art and literature. That artists are using them as symbols for decay and danger. That murder mysteries were suddenly taking place in these places that represented a lost past, and more and more were being torn down to make away from modern architecture. So, they became more and more of a rarity, which I think is, is absolutely true. And they also were kind of, like, symbols of a past where we had a lot more natural resources and wealth. Like, the like, extravagance of a Victorian home during the 1870s, especially on the East Coast, was representative of like, we have all of these trees that we can use as primary resources in making these houses. Like, it's not frivolous, because we have all of this already.
AMANDA: Totally. And as the world moves toward kind of modern architecture and more streamlined lines, and you know, automation. I totally understand how looking back at like, why would you need such a, you know, intricately carved chair rail. Like, it may seem like you're putting resources into, like, frippery or old fashioned, you know, displays of wealth versus like cars, highways, you know, like automats,. All that kind of new 50s stuff.
JULIA: Yeah. Her whole thesis talks a lot about the transition from, like, the Victorian age to the Frank Lloyd Wright age. And I'm like.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Those are, like, absolutely, like, kind of polar opposites in terms of design. That's extremely cool.
AMANDA: Yeah. Like, why would you, you know, invest in a stained glass-like portrait of someone when you could have a, you know, Frank Lloyd Wright, like, open window looking out into the forest?
JULIA: Why not both, though? Why not both?
AMANDA: I know. That's what I think.
JULIA: So, we kind of get to this modern day, and we see that Victorian houses have become shorthand for creepiness. They're a symbol of decay, and the creeping past that kind of lingers in our neighborhoods still. So, I think that's a really interesting take on it, and a reason why when we see Victorian houses we're like, "Ooh, old and creepy," because old is creepy.
AMANDA: And why there is so many Victorian ghosts.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. But while we have our minds on what a haunted house is supposed to look like, where did the concept come from, and what exactly are writers trying to get out when they write about the haunted house? So, according to research done by Mary Katherine MacDonald, who wrote, There's No Place Like Home: The Haunted House as Literary Motif. Great title.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: We can trace the origins of the Haunted bad place. Not exactly the haunted home, but the haunted bad place to Horace Walpole's, the castle of Otranto, which was first published in 1765, and is considered the first Gothic novel.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: Hey. You called it before, love that. So, the plot takes place in a haunted castle and Walpole was inspired to write the story after a nightmare he experienced when he was living in his own Gothic Revival house. We're already like, "My guy, you're, like, in perfect zone for this."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But the thing that these haunted houses in literature have in common is according to MacDonald, it's like a two fold thing, quote from her: On the one hand, it may serve as a repository for an unexpiated sin. The traditional haunted house, in fact, is nothing more than the prison of an earthbound essentially good spirit, who has in some way been wronged and is bent therefore, on alleviating its own suffering. The ghost may, as a sideline, demand proper burial or serve to warn of impending catastrophe, but once he has wreaked revenge by exposing the person responsible for his death, he disappears presumably freed from Purgatory and allowed to enter Heaven Proper. Heaven Proper, as both words are capitalized in this which I really like.
AMANDA: I could hear it in your, in your reading. Thank you.
JULIA: Besides acting as a repository for an unexpiated sin, the haunted house also serves as a kind of psychological mirror capable of reflecting and often preying on the obsessions of the characters who reside within.
AMANDA: Mmh.
JULIA: Which I think that a lot of modern media definitely falls into the latter category, rather than the former. I think we've kind of gone away from the former.
AMANDA: Yeah, and there's definitely so many examples of you know, the ways in which the tragedy mirrors potentiality for the family that just moved in, or the person who just moved in. Where it's a, a young woman, like, worries about becoming the, you know, the maligned spinster ghost that is haunting there, or the young children with lives full of promise, you know, they are haunted by children whose lives were cut short.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that reflection, because I always think it's extremely interesting. And it also just, like, reflects our own personal anxieties when we look at hauntings because usually, that's the thing that the ghosts tend to prey on. And we'll talk a little bit about that later because one of my least favorite tropes in horror is that it's almost always the woman who's being preyed on in her anxieties, but we'll, we'll get there
AMANDA: Too true. I also wonder from a sort of cultural perspective, if at least in the sort of, like, you know, late 1700s, mid 1800s, late 1800s, as these literatures are becoming more popular in the US. Like, generationally, the people with the, you know, social, political, cultural, and like, literal capital to move and to, like, buy homes or build homes or, you know, move to somebody else's grand home. Like, that's a new thing in the US versus more like, this is where my family, my people are from, and we, you know, make dwellings as we need to or have a dwelling that we've always lived in. It's a new thing, at some point, like it was new to like, move into somebody else's mansion and be like, "Okay. Like, what used to happen here?" Like, that's, that's new.
JULIA: Yeah, especially with kind of the expansion to the west.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: I think that's 100% true as well, because people were buying farmland, and then were building homes there. And then they were like, "This is where we're gonna farm the land and live for at least eight generations or something like that." But I think back on the coasts, and once basically, colonizers took over the entire continent of America, you got kind of more of that moving into other people's existing dwellings, but it was later on in the history of what is the United States.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: Kind of moving into something a little bit interesting. The house that the Perrons are inhabiting, they make a point of saying it's not haunted by a ghost, necessarily, but a demonic entity that is bound to the house by the actions of Bathsheba when she cursed all who would take her land. I really like this. I didn't write this down, but the movie does a great job of explaining the steps of a haunting or a possession. And not just in like, a way that's like, oh, the audience is like, "Oh, okay. We can see what's happening here." It's also just a great movie making concept for you like, "Oh. Let's lay out the rules." It's like the guy in Scream explaining the rules of a horror movie, and then you watch everyone break them.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. And I love the retracting-the-projector-screen, and they're written there on the chalkboard.
JULIA: Uh-huh.
AMANDA: I'm like, "Fuck yeah, dude." Like, this is just such efficient staging. I love it.
JULIA: It was great. It's honestly a very good use of the time in the film to be like, "All right. Well, you guys don't know about demonic possession, but I'm gonna teach you about it,and also the audience."
AMANDA: Yeah. And I mean, there is again, like, I'm, I'm not the student of the genre the way you are, but you mentioned that the director had done slashers before and that makes complete sense to me, because this very much felt like somebody who is like interested in engaging with the rules of the genre that he agrees with and kind of bending or breaking the ones that he doesn't. And I love like, that's why I love genre so much. Like, I love watching somebody who is, like, in another genre make something that, like, adds to what he thinks is great about it and, like, kind of skirts what he doesn't. And so at the same time, like, watching a modern actor depict a story from the 70s in a way that, like, harkens to. Like, this film, in my mind, could have been made in, like, the early 90s, or could have been made now because it was kind of, like, engaging or trying to be a classic of the genre. And I think it succeeds.
JULIA: Yeah, that's also a reason why I love Wes Craven stuff so much because he started out in the genre, and then a bunch of years later, he's like, "I'm gonna reexamine what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing in, in this genre. And I'm going to make it new and interesting." And that's how we got the Scream--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --franchise.
AMANDA: I love that.
JULIA: Yeah. God, Wes Craven, so good. Going back to the demonic entities and how we learned about them, the movie kind of puts the spirit of Bathsheba and the demonic presence, which it often conflates the two, which makes it a little bit harder to decipher. But it puts Bathsheba at odds with Lorraine Warren's character. So, she is a good mother pitted against an evil one. So, once again, this is that imagery, that Mary Katherine MacDonald mentioned, that this idea, the haunted house is a psychological mirror that reflects and preys on the obsession of the characters who reside in it. And it's also why the movie argues that Carolyn is targeted as, like, Bathsheba's obsession because she is the vulnerable mother who can be corrupted by the haunting and possession happening in the house. Her desire to protect her children, and especially when her husband is away for business, because he's just doing that truck driving thing.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: Is something that the evil entities residing in the house can corrupt. And this is a really common trope in horror movies, particularly haunted house movies and those dealing with possession, and it always brings me kind of to a somewhat frustrating aspect, at least in my perspective, which it is almost always the women.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: Which is frustrating to say the least, but I did find a couple of interesting articles. So, we can talk about that a little bit. I found a great article from Bitch Media, which was written by Emily Gaudette, titled In Most Films About Demonic Possession, Women are Simply Vessels. So, Gaudette argues that since The Exorcist in 1973, which delivered, like, some actual groundbreaking and shocking scenes, that the demonic possession genre has, "Suffered from a lack of originality, especially in regards to gender roles," which it sure has. I think that's kind of just horror, and in mainstream horror in general has kind of suffered from those gender roles.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
JULIA: But she notes that in most films, it is a masculine identifying demon that possesses a young, attractive woman who typically goes through the same "Horrifying transitions," not just bodily with, like, inhuman contortions, and the spewing of bile and blood, but also the classic foul sexual language that would arguably never be uttered by the vessel for the demon.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Luckily, this movie, kind of, doesn't quite fall into that territory, because we are seeing the spirit of Bathsheba, who's also a woman. And we don't really get a lot of that, like, gross sexual talk, but it's still there. It's still the woman being the one who is the vessel for the demon or the spirit.
AMANDA: Yeah. Well, it's a classic if you've ever taken a, a literature class or talked about symbolism in a, in a classroom, you know? It's like, what is the transgression of the pure vessel. Like, there's real purity culture. There's a real, like, traditional gender roles. Like, this is very typical of all the things that, like, the society holds dear.
JULIA: Yeah, and The Conjuring does kind of fall into that extremely binary gender roles like you said. Ellena R. Sweet's thesis, which is It Wants to Get Inside of You: Interrogating Representations of Women in Possession Films, specifically uses The Conjuring as an example of the failings in these possession films in terms of representing women. The Conjuring, "Perpetuates the binary norms of a patriarchal standard by suggesting that female characters are vulnerable, open, submissive, and suited to domesticity. In The Conjuring, this claim is substantiated by the film's treatment of the Perron women, namely in its tendency to highlight their femininity in moments when they are being physically assaulted by the spirit that haunts their home. And she also notes something that I actually never noticed before watching the film, and it's that: every woman that is part of the Perron family, including the dog, is at some point, assaulted by the spirit of Bathsheba and kind of coming to the conclusion that no woman in the family is safe.
AMANDA: Yeah, and there is a scene near the end of the movie where the two fathers look at each other and Mr. Warren is like holding his wife and the dad of the family Roger is, like, physically putting his arms around this heap of six women and his 5 daughters and his wife. And they, they kind of, like, nod at each other. Like, yeah, our work is done. And it's, like, very clear that this ultimately is a movie about, like, you know, men defending their women and I, you know, use that language in a really, like, intentional way. And like Julia, is there a more kind of, like, I don't know, weak vessel, than like a home, five daughters, a wife, and invaders coming when the dad is not at home. Like, that is a real kind of, like, male anxiety but also at the same time, like a patriarchal savior fantasy.
JULIA: Yeah, and they play with that at the, not at the beginning of the film, but early on in the film, where Roger's like, "Oh, I gotta take a 48 hour drive real quick. I'll be back. It's just gonna be you and the girls." And then she does, like, hears things and she is, like, bothered by the Spirits at that point, because the Spirits start playing the hide-and-seek clap game, and she's like, "You guys should be in bed." And then she's like, "Oh, shit. It's not my children. Not them."
AMANDA: I don't think that the movie is trying to, like, morally implicate her. Like, at no point is it kind of, you know, shown that she is like a bad mom.
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: Or that she invited this in any way, but I think your, you and the scholars that you're quoting, like, are totally right. That this is kind of laying bare a lot of unexamined biases in, like, how, you know, when we look at a family away, I think society wants us to say, "Well, the dad's not home. So, of course, you're vulnerable." And, you know, go from there.
JULIA: Yeah, and I feel like a lot of times, this trope plays with mental illness and the misconception that women are mentally weaker and therefore more vulnerable to possession or oppression in a spiritual sense.
AMANDA: Oh. Ed Warren says it.
JULIA: Yeah. You're like, "My guy, my guy."
AMANDA: My guy, my guy. You are from the 50s so fair enough.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But, my guy.
JULIA: I am often frustrated with that trope, especially watching horror movies and older horror movies to the point where I will often turn to my husband and be like, "Of course, it's the fucking woman who got possessed. Why not? Obviously."
AMANDA: Well, I could not recommend higher, the writings of past Spirits guests like, Carmen Maria Machado, like Jess Zimmerman, like Bethany C Morrow, and Veronica, Seamus. All about the stories that we choose to retell. Like, that's kind of a thesis statement of, of the whole show, right? But like all of those writers have examined, like, what we let haunt us, and I think that it's so interesting, and I'm so glad that we're digging into it today.
JULIA: Yeah, me too. I think that's everything that I had for kind of the "haunted house." And I, I hope that this conversation lets our listeners think a little bit more deeply about this genre of film and book. If they want to. It's totally okay to, like, not have to dig deep into a film. Sometimes you just want to watch something and not think deeply about it. And I totally get that, but sometimes when I watch films, I'm like, "Huh, what was the cultural context for this? Why is this genre like this? Who did this?" And I hope that we did a good job making you think a little bit more about that as well. So, before we go, I have a couple of recommendations for haunted house and haunted house adjacent books, movies, TV shows, you've heard us talk about The Haunting of Hill House, of the Netflix series, a lot on the show. I also highly recommend the book. It's great. The Haunting of Bly Manor was also super enjoyable as well. And I recently read a book called White Smoke by Tiffany D. Jackson, which I think is definitely worth picking up as well.
AMANDA: I love that. And if you are wanting to get into board games, or you like board games already, I highly recommend Betrayal at House on the Hill, which is the first game that, that my, my fiance Eric and I played together. And I think it's also a really good way to get into role playing. It's something we always recommend, because it sort of plays with, you have, like, a literal deck of cards of, like, ways that a haunted house story can end and you, together in the group, sometimes it's all of you, sometimes it's just one of you, play the haunting. And so, it's a kind of board game where you're all together until you're not, and it's very interesting. It's not that spooky, but if you're interested in this kind of trope, there are a lot of really, really fun ways that you can, you know, play with it and kind of enact it together. So, that's Betrayal at House on the Hill.
JULIA: Check it out. It's a lot of fun. I love playing that game.
AMANDA: I do too. Well, Julia, I loved looking at this media. You know that I love talking about why something was made, how it was funded, what the idea was, and the, the cultural context of not just this particular movie, but the whole genre. So, you've given me what a wonderful Halloween gift and thank you for it.
JULIA: Oh, you're welcome. I love giving Halloween gifts that aren't just Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.
AMANDA: And everybody, have a spooky scary safe time. And remember.
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcribed by: Krizia Marrie Casil, John Matthew Sarong
Edited by: Krizia Marrie Casil