Episode 275: Liberian Storytelling and Oral Tradition (with Mayonn Paasewe-Valchev)
/We’re joined by author Mayonn Paasewe-Valchev, an incredible storyteller and educator. We talk about how myths are purposeful, cautionary storytelling, and the differences between oral storytelling and literary traditions.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of parental death, grief, animal attacks, drowning, and kidnapping.
Guest
Mayonn Paasewe-Valchev was born in Liberia, where she was exposed to a culture of oral storytelling at a young age. She lived in the Netherlands for several years, where she learned to stuff her klompen (wooden shoes) with carrots and developed a love for reading stories—especially tales written by Roald Dahl and Astrid Lindgren. She lives in Georgia with her family. Pre-order her book, The Leopard Behind the Moon, today!
Housekeeping
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- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Pokemon Legends: Arceus.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Multitude’s newest member show, Queer Movie Podcast! This is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join them as they research and rate their way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. Search for Queer Movie Podcast in your podcast app to subscribe today!
Sponsors
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.'
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this week we are joined by the absolutely fantastic Mayonn Paasewe-Valchev. Mayonn, welcome.
MAYONN: Hi, Amanda. Hi, Julia. Thank you for having me.
JULIA: It's our pleasure. And I am so excited to talk to you today because I have been reading your book, The Leopard Behind the Moon. I have been listening to other interviews that you did. I'm just really excited to chat and learn more about you and about oral storytelling and all your writing experience.
MAYONN: Thank you. I'm excited to.
JULIA: So, why don't we start really quickly with kind of, like, a quick pitch or a quick summary of the book to kind of entice our listeners to go pick it up, because that's the goal is to get them to read your wonderful work.
MAYONN: Oh, good. Okay, so the the book is about a 10-year-old boy named Ezomo, who is considered the most useless boy in his village, and Ezomo is considered useless because he doesn't attend school as frequently as the other children, he doesn't contribute to village life, he doesn't help his mother with chores, and Ezomo doesn't do all of these things, because he's grieving the loss of his father who was killed by a leopard, so he spends most of his time sitting in the forest, daydreaming, grieving. And one day while he's doing that, he sees the leopard believed to have killed his father. And so, he called the hunters and asked them to come help him catch this leopard. And they make fun of him, they tell him "hey, you're useless, find something better to do." And so, Ezomo he at least is able to get the his friends who are by the way, also outcasts in the village, Mudraw and Shemoma, and he gets them to come with him to capture this leopard. But in order to do so, they break three important rules in the village. One, is never ever open this magical door that protects us all. The other is, never go out at night. Children are not allowed out at night, and never ever go to the valley. And Ezomo breaks all three of these rules. And so, it's really about his adventure through this magical door, what he discovers behind the door, there are these myths about what lies behind the door and, you know, he finally gets to see whether they're, they're true or not. At the heart of the story, it's about overcoming, you know, a loss, hope. When you're the most useless boy in the village, and everyone discounts you, how do you accomplish something so big and so giant? And yes, so that's what the story is about.
JULIA: Oh, gosh, I uh, I feel like I'm in the world already. And I am really enjoying the book. And one of the things that struck me while I was reading it was the way that you chose to tell the story felt very much like storytelling in an oral tradition sense, so was that a conscious decision on your part while writing it?
MAYONN: It was a conscious decision. So, I have a background in early childhood education and I used to tell my students stories all the time. I've had younger students and I have had older students, and I would sit them down and tell them stories, just like how I heard stories growing up in Liberia. Without a book, just from my imagination, and my students would sit down, they would listen, they wouldn't be bored, they would not be restless. I mean, it was just very magical, me witnessing this. I did it with 2-year-olds, I did it with 3-year-olds. I did it with the 5, 4 and 5-year-olds, and I did it with first graders, and even adults, that had the same impact. You know, they were just sit and I could, I could see their minds. And I could see that, you know, they were stimulated, and they're imagining my words. So, at the time, when they got the idea for this book, I was working as a first grade teacher. And I decided that I wanted to write a story that would expose children to elements of different cultures from around the world. And I thought, well, I'll start with my culture, African culture. I thought I'm going to write it just by how I heard stories growing up. And so that was very intentional. And yeah so...
JULIA: That's great, I guess that does answer a question that I had, which is why you chose, like, middle grade in particular, as the kind of age group that you want to be telling these stories to.
MAYONN: Mhmm.
JULIA: And I really loved this quote that I found on your website about how you, as a teacher firsthand, you saw the power of storytelling, how it fuels curiosity, unleashed imagination, and settles the spirit. And I think that's so, like, you just created that image in my mind of, like, everyone sitting around you and there's no restlessness, there's just calm and enrapture in the story, and I really, really love that.
MAYONN: Thank you so much. I think stories heal. I think that's one of the reasons I wrote The Leopard Behind the Moon. And I wrote it for children suffering from any form of loss. I mean, it doesn't have to be a parent that, you know, is no longer here, as is the case with Ezomo. He lost his father. When we think about losses, we can think about, you know, a child having to switch to a different school, you know, moving from one state to another state. And so, I think I really wanted to speak to middle graders because that was the age when I experienced my grief. And so, I wanted to write this book for them and say, "Hey, you're not alone. I hear you. You know, I experienced grief, too. And this is what it looks like, this is what it can feel like," because when I was experiencing grief, no one necessarily said you're grieving. That's why you feel this way.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
MAYONN: It took me to, you know, being a woman realize, Oh, I was grieving as a child. That's, that's, that is what I was experiencing. Yeah. Sorry, I forgot what your question was. Oh, the quote. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: And it's a great quote, and I can see why you wanted to write for middle grade in particular, because it's almost like speaking to your childhood self, right?
MAYONN: Absolutely. Absolutely. So like I said, I wrote the book initially to exposure to different cultures, but as I started writing, you know, I started, I realized I was really writing about my experiences with grief in early childhood. And those experiences started to spill out into the pages. And so, it was a healing experience for me writing The Leopard Behind the Moon. And I hope that, you know, children and adults who read the book find that it's, it's, it's healing for them too.
JULIA: Yeah, as someone who has been experiencing some grief lately, it was a really, really lovely read, so I very much appreciated it. And I could very much relate.
MAYONN: Great. That's good to hear.
JULIA: Yeah. I mean, like, it's always nice to know that, like, you have your intended audience, but other people can enjoy and get something out of the story. You know?
MAYONN: Absolutely. Yes.
JULIA: So, you mentioned growing up in Liberia. I know you relocated to the Netherlands and then to the United States. Were there stories that you grew up with that you incorporated into the book?
MAYONN: Some of them. So, I would say like, there were, there were, like, themes of the types of stories I heard growing up. So, in the book, you may remember there's a story about dragonfly and mosquito, there's a story about the lizard that is jealous of the birds, the sounds of the birds, because birds have wings, and you know, why should he put her on the forest floor and the birds get to fly and so he steals the wings of a bird. And so, I, I was accustomed to hearing those types of stories in Liberia stories that, you know, would teach you a lesson, stories that we teach you that there are consequences to bad behavior. Stories that I think give insight into human emotions, right? So like, jealousy, greed, these kinds of things, and what are the consequences of those emotions. And so, that's why I weaved those types of stories into The Leopard Behind the Moon. And so, I grew up hearing lots of animal fables. I grew up hearing riddles and songs. I don't ever remember, as a young child, anyone sitting down and reading a book to me, but people told me stories, lots and lots and lots of stories. And so, I would say the themes were, were, were weaved into The Leopard Behind the Moon. So, stories of witchcraft and sorcery are heard. Those types of stories growing up to and so that's a theme that's weaved into the book. Using witchcraft to explain the unexplainable. So, for example, there's a character in the book, Toba, who loses his voice. We don't know why Toba, you know, lost his voice but the villagers, somebody said it's probably because of witchcraft. And when things happen in the story that the children cannot explain sometimes [8:31] says, It's witchcraft, this leopard must be witchcraft. So, so, there are these themes that I weaved into, there are lots of stories about the forest. And in fact, the forest is where we first meet the leopard, the forest can be a place of good and evil. In the forest is where you have spirits. And when we first meet the leopard, we don't know if this leopard is a spirit, we don't really know what it is. And we don't know. A spirit can be good, a spirit can be harmful. And similarly with the leopard, we don't know. Is this a good leopard? Is it a bad leopard? Is he helping us? Is he harming us? So you know, again, it's not like I picked a particular story that I heard growing up, but there are these elements that are consistent that you find throughout oral storytelling in African culture and African mythologies, I weave those themes, those themes into it.
JULIA: Yeah, I absolutely felt the spirit of those in the stories that you were telling.
MAYONN: Oh, good. Good.
JULIA: I love that.
MAYONN: And that wasn't necessarily intentional, right? So, telling it in an oral storytelling style, that was very much intentional, but as far as weaving in those like, you know, mythological elements, it wasn't intentional. It, you know, it's just when you grow up hearing something and experiencing something and it's in your blood. And so, you, when I tell my stories, it just shows up that way. And then later when I look back and I say oh, yeah, you know, I heard stories before as older times that have spirits and witchcraft. And it's, it's, you know, that's why it's in my story now so...
AMANDA: That makes total sense. Your story and your book are products of you. And you're the product of all of the, you know, ingredients you were surrounded by and influenced by growing up.
MAYONN: Yeah, that's right. Exactly so...
JULIA: I wonder if there is a story or maybe a moment in your childhood that you remember hearing a story and being like, oh, I want to do this too. I want to be the storyteller.
MAYONN: In my childhood, I would say that I want to be the storyteller. I don't know if I had that moment. I will say that when I was in the Netherlands, I read a lot of the Roald Dahl books, right. So, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Matilda, The BFG. And I remember that it was such an escape for me that even when I didn't have friends, or when I felt excluded, Matilda was my friend, Charlie was my friend, right? And I wanted to create such a world for, for children that if everything isn't okay, in your life, in your world, you can climb inside of the story and just lose yourself. Everything else might be chaotic on the outside, but in this story, someone understands me. Someone gets me. I can identify with his character, this character is relatable. I wanted to have a similar impact on children just like what those stories did for me. So yeah.
JULIA: No, I love that. That's so aspirational, I suppose is a good word for it. Yeah, the idea that you can create something that was so important to you when you needed it most.
MAYONN: Absolutely. And those stories are very empowering, because the children were always heroes in the stories. And many of them have, you know, challenges too. Charlie, in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, his family was very poor. You know, Matilda had crazy parents, so yeah.
AMANDA: And worlds, I don't understand them or particularly want to.
MAYONN: That's right. That's right. Yes.
JULIA: And I feel like in those books in particular, as well, it is very much like children are never believed or they are, like, made to feel smaller than they are. And so, giving them powers or giving them opportunities very much seems like the course of action where they can make their situations better.
MAYONN: Absolutely. That's true.
JULIA: Oh, I have a question regarding, I guess, writing. I love asking authors writing questions, because they always have such great insight. But for you, and the fact that, you know, you made that kind of conscious decision to make your book feel like oral storytelling
MAYONN: Mhmm.
JULIA: Do you find that there's much of a difference in writing versus oral storytelling tradition? Like, were there any particular challenges that you came across translating from one to another?
MAYONN: I did, yes. Because in oral storytelling, I would sort of rush through some of the details, right? So, I had a limited time to tell my students stories, so my stories were short. They were quick, they were entertaining. My students participated, I would ask them questions, I would involve them in the storytelling, but I didn't take the time to, for example, explain. Fully explaining emotions of the characters, or to fully explain the different settings of the story. So descriptions, my descriptions were, were vague in oral storytelling, whereas with the written story style, I had to slow down, I have to bring the reader into my imagination. And to do that, I have to really be descriptive and take my time and slow down and share all of those intimate details. So, even just describing, like, different plants, or just like, even some eat something, like what does it feel, like what is the sensation? So, I think yeah, I think that the big difference for me was just the level of detail in written form versus oral storytelling.
JULIA: Mhmm.
MAYONN: So, I definitely had to do a lot of learning. I think of myself as a storyteller of story stories in my mind all the time, everything is a story to me, but I think I had to learn the form, the structure of the written form. The, you know, how to, how to put your words down on paper and follow some of the structures that have been suggested. Yeah, so that was a learning experience for me and still is
AMANDA: Did having that experience change your thoughts around the kinds of books you want to write next?
MAYONN: I don't think so. I think it has just made me more meticulous, you know. And so, now I well, I would say the girl walked down the street for example, right? Now I have to study this girl, I have to study her backstory, I have to know what was the girl doing before she even started walking down street, right? And write a story about that. And so frankly, I think I'm, I don't know, yeah, I'm more meticulous now. And I love it. I love it. I love details actually. And I used to be afraid of details. I used to love the quickness of the oral storytelling. Not that oral storytelling in general cannot be meticulous and detailed, but mine wasn't. Mine was very quick and short and sweet. But now really the, for me part of the beauty of storytelling, you know, it's just kind of getting down into the details and studying the backstories. All of those characters in The Leopard Behind the Moon, they all have backstories. Ian Muna. Muna only shows up for a few seconds, but she has a story. And there's a reason why, you know, she shows up the way that she does. There's a reason why she's, she wants to get Ezomo or she feels like something needs to be done about Ezomo. So, and I love that. This is one of my favorite part of writing now, is like the details.
JULIA: That's so interesting. And it has me thinking now the differences between telling a story orally versus having a written story. And I'm curious as to whether or not you think that an audience that's listening to a story fills in more details in their mind, as opposed to a reader who is expecting all of these details to be provided for them?
MAYONN: Interesting. That's a really good question, so I can speak for myself.
JULIA: Please.
MAYONN: When I read a story, I think my imagination is actually more stimulated than when I listen to a story in the audiobook form. Okay? When I'm listening to an audio book, for example, but when I would sit my students down, and I would tell them these stories, and I would just make up things and invite them to make up things with me, its I would provide part of the story, but the other half they had to provide, and they had to make up these things with me. I think that was extremely stimulating for their imagination, maybe even more so than if I provided most of the details like I would do in the written form. I don't know, this is a very tough question. Maybe it depends on the age too, you know, maybe at a certain age, you have more of a foundation, right? So, you have more to draw upon versus when you're, when you're younger, you have very little. I think it depends on the storyteller anyway.
JULIA: Yeah.
MAYONN: How good is the story? And how well are the details? Yeah, I think it depends on the writing on the story, on the storyteller, because sometimes, you know, writing is so vague that I don't know if you can even, you can imagine, but it's just not as nice of an imagination as when the author provides, you know, helpful details that help you along. And I think it depends on the type of story that you're reading too because sometimes I'm just interested in the character, not even so much details of this heading, but even then the details around the character matters, too. So, I don't know. It's a tough question. I need to think about that one some more. I love it.
JULIA: That's all right. Good. Good. I'm glad. You know what, this is a perfect time for us to take a quick break and grab a refill and we'll be right back.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, I'm enjoying this episode so much but we got to make sure we take time for us, take time for our patrons, take time for our sponsors. Take time for a refill.
JULIA: Exactly, Amanda. We're here at the party and things have, like, hit a little bit of a low but that's okay because, like, you can't keep going and going and going for hours. That's not, we're 30. That's not gonna work.
AMANDA: Too true. And we have to make sure, first and foremost, we thank Sarah who is our newest patron who joined the Spirits party if you will. Thank you Sarah for coming on board. You joined the distinguished ranks of our hundreds of patrons but the ones we name every episode include our supporting producer level patrons: Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Little vomitspiders running around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And Julia, don't forget it. The legend level patrons: Audra, Bex, Clara, Iron Havoc, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: Amanda, how could I forget it? There are or patrons. They're like our friends who show up at the party and like everyone stops it's like, "Hey, Audra!"
AMANDA: Or like when I go to Trader Joe's and I never walk out without a box of those mini cheese sandwich crackers. I love them. I could never forget them.
JULIA: Of course. Of course. Speaking of I guess your favorite things, Trader Joe's, but also in the world. Amanda, what have you been watching, listening to, reading lately?
AMANDA: Well, I realized that I have not yet recommended Pokemon Arceus. It's a new game in the pokemon franchise that came out last month, but I played all of it in, like, a week. And so, I didn't even talk about it because it was over so fast. And I loved it so much. And I'm just going to be playing in that world for a long time. It is really really lovely. If you liked Breath of the Wild, if you like RPGs or if like me, you're sort of, like, I don't know, I don't really do video games, but I do Pokemon. It's a really good kind of easing in and step in to the broader world of RPGs. I loved it.
JULIA: Are you already a Pokemon master?
AMANDA: I am. I have. I've caught them all, but now what I'm doing, Julia, is shiny hunting. There are shiny pokemon, which are exactly the same, but just different color. And they've been in lots of iterations of Pokemon, but it's very annoying because a lot of the time and all other games previously, you had to just kind of, like, keep bumping into the Pokemon over and over again and hope that what, you know, the load screen would come up to be shiny, not so in Arceus. You can just spot them from a distance, and it's so much better. I'm like, "Oh, why is there a blue--? It's shiny!" That's what I'm like.
JULIA: I love that. I'm very happy for you. I'm always so excited when you're like, "I'm a Pokemon master now" and like, of course you are. Shocking no one.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Oh, thank you. Well, that's what I've been really enjoying. How about Julia, if the folks they're caught up on Spirits, they're caught up on many of the, of the podcasts they love and enjoy. What could they consider adding to their podcast app and getting really into?
JULIA: Well, if they'd like last week's episode. If you're not already subscribed to the Queer Movie Podcast, I don't know what you're doing. It's a queer movie watch party hosted by our friends, Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. They research and write their way through the Queer Film canon one genre at a time. I'm particularly fond of their queer horror one that they did recently. And they do anything from RomComs to slashers to contemporary art house cinema to black and white classics. It's basically a celebration of all things gay on the silver screen, and they have new episodes out every other Thursday, and you can find them in your podcast app by just searching Queer Movie Podcast.
AMANDA: Beautiful. And now Julia, let's make sure we thank our sponsors for this episode. Firstly, this never depresses me, but did you know that an estimated 5 billion plastic hand soap and cleaning bottles are thrown away each year?
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JULIA: Amanda, this week we're also sponsored by the etiquette and culture podcast Shmanners. Shmanners is hosted by the husband and wife team of Travis and Teresa McElroy. And their goal is to make sure that you know everything you need to feel comfortable and confident out in society. As someone who, like, has social anxiety sometimes I go into social situations and I'm like, "I don't know if this is, like, the appropriate thing to be doing." I'm not sure if, like, people are gonna judge me if I do this or I don't do this and Shmanners is a great way of, like, making myself feel comfortable before going into an unknown situation. They've covered topics like writing thank you notes, attending rock concerts, encountering today's Cowboy Poetry.
AMANDA: Truly what do you do when you encounter every day? And there's an episode on Animal Crossing etiquette, which I think is really great for me. There really is something for everyone and it's presented in a fun and friendly non-judgmental way. They believe that etiquette is about being your best self, not about making others feel bad for what they do, which I think is great.
JULIA: So, you can go and listen to Shmanners today at shmanners.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. That is Shmanners spelled S-H-M-A-N-N-E-R-S.com, or in your podcatcher. Manners, shmanners… get it?
AMANDA: And finally, we are sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Relationships, they take a lot of work. I think we all hear this but it's something else to sort of encounter it yourself. And BetterHelp wants to remind us this month that the most important relationship you have in your life is your relationship with yourself. Julia, what are some of the ways that you kind of take time for yourself? We've talked about our baths, we've talked about our walks, we've talked about obviously going to therapy. Is there anything else that comes to mind for you?
JULIA: I'm a big fan of giving my brain something to do after I finished the work day because a lot of times I feel like I need to keep going, keep going. And so, I've talked about how I enjoy embroidery as a way of, like, kind of clearing my mind and it being a very zen moment for me after a long work day.
AMANDA: That's often for me my little video games where I can go and water my flowers and collect my plants and, you know, farm my soil and just do something where I feel productive but I am actually resting and I think it is super important. I also, every single week, make time for therapy and I do therapy via BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapists so you don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Give it a try and see why over 2 million people have used BetterHelp Online Therapy. Once more, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Spirits listeners get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's B E T T E R H E L P.com/spirits. And now, let's get back to the show. I am really curious, as a parent, either how has experience changed kind of how you approach either buying books or telling stories for your kids? Or are there stories that your kids find really fascinating that you're, like, why does this appeal to you so much?
MAYONN: Well, I use my kids for my kid research.
AMANDA: Good.
MAYONN: So, I'm always asking, "well, why did you choose this story versus this one? You know, what's so great about this story?" In fact, my, my son, he's eight and he told me that there are these elements that you must make sure you weave into the story. And I have them written on my board right now. He says you have, you have to have wonder, you have to have humor, there needs to be some element of fright, there needs to be suspense, problem solving. And it has to be intriguing. And for your title, you have to dig deep into your imagination is where his, dig deep into your imagination. So you know, I think I'm always talking to my students. We recently read a book together, a novel together, not my students, excuse me, my children, we recently read a novel together. And they complained that there were just too many details in the novel. And so, so ask them, like, "well, what could the author have done differently?: And you know, they would give me some input on that. And so, definitely, I get a lot of feedback from them. And so, they influence, influence me. In fact, my, one of my boys is reading this series that he loves, the middle school series by James Patterson. Love that series, so I asked him questions. What is it about the series that you love so much, you know? And it's very relatable. And he tells me these kinds of things. So yeah, I use them for market research.
JULIA: They're incredibly insightful based on those, those like, they have to have this and this and that, like.
MAYONN: Yeah.
JULIA: Incredible.
MAYONN: They read a lot too, so yeah.
JULIA: That's awesome. So, kind of speaking about children, and we were talking about oral tradition earlier, and storytelling, I know that you have talked about cautionary tales, in particular being important in all oral traditions.
MAYONN: Mhmm.
JULIA: Why do you think that is because we talk a lot on this show about how mythology and folklore and storytelling all have a purpose. And it's usually to learn about or explain the world around us, but why do you think that cautionary tales are so universal as well?
MAYONN: Well, that's, that's a really good question. In fact, I was thinking about how when I grew up, I grew up hearing stories of Mami Wata, which was a sea spirit. And if you venture too far into the ocean, Mami Wata could take you, you know, underwater. And so, recently, I was talking to my, I visited my parents, and both of my parents grew up in coastal towns, and I said, "Oh, mommy, so you must be a good swimmer." And my mother said, "No, I don't swim at all." I was like, "Why you don't swim?" And you know, I don't swim. I say, "Oh, well, daddy, are you a good swimmer?" And he said, "No, I don't know how to swim either." And so, I was thinking about how maybe Mami Wata was told, that story was told to us so that we wouldn't venture deep into the ocean because if you don't know how to swim, you know, it's dangerous. So, that nets are purposeful. They are, I think, intended to protect us, even in The Leopard Behind the Moon, don't go behind this village door. And there are all these different tales about, you know, what's behind the door intent. And I think part of that was intended to protect and having sometimes, you know, it's, it is just frivolous storytelling. We enjoyed, we enjoy the stories, but I think there's this element of protection, but then I started to question when does the protection move into control. So for example, in The Leopard Behind the Moon, the elders, you wonder, are they protecting them? Are they controlling them? And, you know, Ezomo, ends up being the disrupter because. He's the disrupter in a way because he doesn't pay attention to these myths, actually. So, maybe he's not as afraid of what's behind the door. But yes, I think that one of the main purposes of myths are to protect us, help us explain the unexplainable, but yeah, but I, the tale of Mami Wata resonated with me, because I thought, oh, that's why they told us that story. They didn't want us to go deep into the ocean, you know, if we can't swim, so, or one of the reasons why they told us that story.
JULIA: And I think that's why, like, in particular, like, for example, younger children, or middle grade is, like, the perfect time to be telling these kinds of cautionary tales, because these are the moments where it's like, I'm going to teach you a lesson because you won't listen to me when I say don't run out into the streets. And I'm going to tell you a story about why you shouldn't run out into the street but you're not going to know exactly that's what I'm telling you about, you know.
MAYONN: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's, it is the perfect, the perfect age. Yeah. But you know, I think one of the things I love about Ezomo, is that the character in [30:07] that, you know, he, I don't know, it's almost like he didn't, he didn't buy into those things or into those stories, and maybe because he was grieving, so he wasn't paying attention. But again, I think that led him to be more open to opening that door and seeing what was behind that door and challenging the myths actually, and challenging the narratives. I guess, the stories that they have been told.
JULIA: You mentioned loving Roald Dahl before. A lot of his books kind of feature questioning authority and, like, disrupting authority. Do you think you got a little bit of inspiration from that?
MAYONN: Probably so. I, you know, it's funny, because I'm always attracted to these rebel types in, like, whenever I've worked places where I'm like, "Why am I always attracted to the people that break the rules? Or don't want to follow the rules?" Whereas I'm the one that wants to follow the rule. And then I started studying archetypes lately, and I found that, that one of the archetypes is a rebel. And I said, Oh, it's because it's been me, you know, maybe I'm just.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MAYONN: Afraid of it. And so, I think it comes out in your writing, these things that, you know, they are part of you like, I think I would want to open the door and see what's behind it, you know, and so...
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, myths and stories wouldn't have to be so compelling and interesting. And we wouldn't have to constantly find new ways and variations to tell them if human beings were good at listening to rules in the first place.
MAYONN: Right.
AMANDA: Happily, for storytellers, there is no more human urge, I think, than to open the door, you're not supposed to open.
MAYONN: Right.
AMANDA: Or to, you know, undergo the journey, see why it happened. And then by the time you come back, you become the person repeating the story and saying, trust me, I know firsthand, you know, this is not a thing that you want to repeat. But you know that, at least in my experience getting older, like, there are lots of things that I wish I could have internalized just by hearing it, and certain things you just have to live.
MAYONN: Yeah, yeah. Well said, well said.
AMANDA: On the show, we also cover contemporary urban legends folktales. And I wonder in your home state of Georgia, are there any local urban legends or tales that you've heard that either strike you as surprising or compelling or ridiculous. Anything come to mind?
MAYONN: Not that I can think of right now. Probably means I need to get out more. And mostly in this room writing. This is like, this is my whole world, you guys.
AMANDA: I'm the oldest of four kids and I remember when my siblings came home from school, and I saw one of them do to the other the sort of like, break an egg on your head, you know, like, run the yolk down your scalp sort of trick, which was common in our elementary school growing up, and I was like, "Who told you that? Like, I didn't tell you that. Who that six years younger than me taught you that?" And so, it's amazing to see the kind of commonalities, you know, that seem completely disparate to each other of, like, everybody has, you know, it seems in the US, like, a myth where you park under a bridge, and turn the lights off, and you see, you know, like a spectral form appear in front of you. So it's, it's one of those fun things that, that sort of somehow sort of arises out of the ether.
MAYONN: I see. Oh, you know, now that you're speaking I do remember when I was in Holland, there was this thing about Bloody Mary that if you, like, flip the light switch on three times or something and there was a number of time and that, you know, you would like call on Bloody Mary. I mean, that's, I just vaguely remember this.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
MAYONN: Just asking me
AMANDA: Our version of that was to say it into the mirror, right Julia?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: There was no light flicking, but that, that would be creepier to kind of set the mood with the lights.
JULIA: I think you were supposed to turn the light switch off, say it three times or maybe five times. And then you put it back on and when you put the light back on [33:36] or something. But it's wild, but that is, like, a legitimately international --
AMANDA: Global.
JULIA: -- global experience, right?
MAYONN: Yeah, yeah. That was in Holland when I, I heard that. Yeah.
JULIA: I mean, wild!
AMANDA: Wow. Maybe one day your kids will come home and be like, "Mom, Bloody Mary, I heard about it."
MAYONN: Yeah. maybe. But these things stick with you, you know, because even now when my kids are playing with the light switch, I want to say "Hey, guys, don't, don't do that, you know, or.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MAYONN: You know when I'm swimming I, I do think about Mami Wata. You know, even [34:05] now I'm like, "This is not real, but is it real? You know, maybe it is. I don't know." That's the thing about this because, you know, some part of it feels factual and then others. It's like no, that's not true at all. And they're so intertwined because I know that in the ocean, there's things that are unknown. There are dangerous things, but obviously it's probably not a sea spirit, but, but maybe it is. I don't know.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Amanda likes to make a kind of sad joke but it's like as an Irish person everyone knows a family where someone drowned.
AMANDA: Yeah, like, in a well or in, like a pond that seems too small and it's like "Oh God," but that's why we learn those stories.
MAYONN: Right.
AMANDA: Because it, it prevents you from doing something, you know, that is very useful and helps you.
MAYONN: Yeah.
JULIA: And the Irish version of Mami Wata is like Kelpies, which are, like, basically underwater sea horses that if you pet it, it'll drag you underneath the water and drown you.
MAYONN: Wow.
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like again, almost every culture, if they have water, it's probably a story about a water spirit that will drown you if you don't follow certain rules.
MAYONN: Right. Right. What do you think are the purpose of myths? Why do you think we have them?
JULIA: I agree with you, 100% is that we tell these stories, one to explain the world around us. Like, for example, the Greek mythology of Persephone and Hades explains why the seasons change, you know, but I do believe that, like, oral tradition is so important because it teaches us lessons about society, and also how to preserve certain aspects that we want future generations to preserve, whether it's protecting young ones in stories, where it's like, "Hey, don't swim in the dark currents or stuff like that" to "Hey, respect your elders, because this figure didn't and then look what happened to him."
MAYONN: Yeah, yeah. And that's why things I discovered too, is that in some cultures in Africa, like, the brightest children were selected to pass down these stories. They were like the story keepers. And I connected it back to The Leopard Behind the Moon, that if the story, if the children were the keepers of the stories, and they were the ones who were supposed to pass down these narratives, and you have this one that isn't, like, falling in line, and definitely he's disrupting, you know, the, the society and the standards, so yeah...
JULIA: I love that that actually kind of does lead into my next question, which is, if you have advice for people who feel like they want to be a storyteller, or are storytellers and want to continue down that path, what advice would you give them?
MAYONN: I would say, observe everything, listen to everything because you know, that's where you will get your ideas. Later on when you need to write details in your story, you will remember that, that woman that was picking her, you know, her teeth, you know, or playing with her jacket in a certain way, these, these intimate details that you can weave into your stories, I would say write a lot. Write all the time, so you practice. I would say read a lot. Read well written stories.
AMANDA: And I love the advice that you gave your kids around, like, paying attention to what they wish was there or what they wish was different and thinking about not just, "oh, I don't like this," which is where I feel like I stopped as a kid be like, "No, I don't like that. No, thank you." And instead, you know, you're prompting them to say, like, "What could have been different? How could the author have solved this problem?" You know, kind of --
MAYONN: Right.
AMANDA: -- almost, like, peeling back the surface a little bit to look at the mechanics underneath. I've always found that to be so compelling.
MAYONN: Yeah, that, that's right. And that I think, also just be soft on yourself. Just have fun. You know, writing is fun, telling a story is fun. It's a way to connect with other people. It's a way to help other people imagine, it's a way to help people cope really with challenges and difficulties and how great it is that you can take someone from their world and put them in a whole new world, so just have fun with it. Don't be so hard on yourself, because I think that can lead you to stop writing as well when you try. You want everything to be so perfect. And I mean, I started, I had the idea for The Leopard Behind the Moon in 2011, I believe.
AMANDA: Wow.
MAYONN: And where are we now? You know, 2022, it just came out last year, so it takes a lot of patience. There are so many iterations, so many people have feedback. And it's okay, it's fine, because the book is out in the world now. And it's living and, you know, so writing can feel hard and difficult and painful, but just try to think about the enjoyment of it and think about the fun side of it so that you can keep going and so that you don't stop, so that one day your book can be published too and I can read your book so...
AMANDA: Wonderful.
JULIA: As what we all want. You just want our listeners who are writers, I want all your books to exist out in the world.
MAYONN: For sure.
JULIA: Speaking of which, is there any, this a two-fold question, is there anything that you're working on right now that you're excited about? And what kind of stories do you think you want to tell in the future?
MAYONN: Thank you. I love that question. So my second novel is now with my editor. And she, I know I'm so excited, I'm waiting to hear back from her. And that novel takes place not in Africa at this time, so like I said, my goal was to expose children to different cultures from around the world, right? And that is still my goal. And so, so I do visit a different continent this time, which I'm excited about. And I have a girl protagonist, and, and I can't say much more about it, because I don't know how --
AMANDA: That's okay.
MAYONN: -- the story would change, you know. I mean, once my editor got it last time, there's a lot of rewriting of parts two and three, so I don't know where, how the story will evolve.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Oh, I was gonna say when it comes out, let us know you can come back and tell us all about it.
MAYONN: That would be great. And while I was with her I'm writing and working on the third one and I guess I'm just playing around with the story and, you know, so... But I'm, I'm always writing something. I'm always writing something. It's hard for me not to be writing, so I'm always writing, so...
JULIA: I'm always so impressed when people are like, yeah, like, there's not really anything that can stop me from writing because for me, I enjoy writing, but it is, like, such a difficulty to get myself started. You know what I mean? So people who are like, I just got to write, I'm like, hey, that's so much.
MAYONN: Do you write?
JULIA: Like, on the side.
MAYONN: Okay, what do you write on the side?
JULIA: I mean, I would like to write some, like, I have some speculative history, and like fantasy sci-fi stuff that I would love to write. Let's see if I can finish anything is first step, because I tend to be like, Oh, this is a great idea. And then I write like, a quarter of it. And then I'm like, Oh, I have another great idea." And then move on to the next thing, and the next thing, and nothing ever gets finished.
AMANDA: Yeah, and I do a lot of, like, nonfiction, kind of, like, Resources and Service pieces for people doing podcasting in creative peers.
MAYONN: Ah.
AMANDA: Which is, similarly I love when it's done, I have lots to say, but the getting out of my own head as I do it is something that I need to commit to doing more regularly. And I think that would help me not to, like, use you as my writing therapist, but like, making myself do it even without worrying about whether it's good or not, I think is kind of the, the key for me.
MAYONN: Absolutely. Okay, that's great. You know, I find that when I have an idea, I just start writing, okay? I just start writing. I don't create an outline or anything, I just want to get it out on paper. I'm excited about the story, but then somewhere. Like, in maybe like, 20, 20 pages and maybe 40 pages in or something like that, I start to feel lost and that's when I, I think that would be my stopping point, right? That is probably where I would say I don't want to write this novel anymore. I want to go now work on a new idea. What I do then is to go and create an outline and then I start asking, so just a basic outline. I start asking questions of the characters. Okay, so what, what does is a whole lot like why did he do this thing you know, and and usually those questions will help, and the outline will help push me past you know, the 20 pages under 40 pages and get me to the next level until I hit a block again and then I, you know, that's when I have to create an even bigger outline and start asking deeper questions but I think we all love the starting part. Yeah. The concept, the idea and then eventually get stuck.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Perfect in my head. I don't have to worry about the execution coming out. Well, you've reenergized me too to dedicate myself to writing more.
JULIA: Agreed. That is the 20 to 40 pages is also my biggest problem, wo new advice for me to try next time I sit down and write. I think that's everything that I have for today. Amanda, anything from you?
AMANDA: No, I would just love to know, please, where listeners can buy The Leopard Behind the Moon and where they can find you online.
MAYONN: Okay, so my website is mayonn.com, so it's just ma y o n n and I have links to independent bookstores, some in the Atlanta area and then also Barnes and Nobles, Amazon all of, all of those places you can buy The Leopard Behind the Moon.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: Awesome, and people can find the links to all that in the show notes of this episode.
AMANDA: Well, thank you again for coming on Spirits. We can't wait to have you back when the next book is out.
MAYONN: Oh my gosh. Thank you.
AMANDA: And everybody remember.
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai