Episode 341: Jewish Lesbian Vampires (with Samara Breger)
/We’re joined by author Samara Breger, to talk about vampires: queer vampires, Jewish vampires, and reclaiming The Vampire.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of antisemitism, The Holocaust, eugenics, blood, homophobia/lesbophobia, misogyny, stalking, predatory relationships, animal death, sex, and death.
Guest
Samara Breger writes books about women in improbable circumstances falling in love. Before she started writing books, she worked in public radio, podcasting, and digital journalism. She is a proud News and Documentary Emmy loser. If you peek into her work history, you'll find a lot of stuff about sex, reproductive health, and queer people. Her new book, A Long Time Dead, is now available.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends the game Inscryption
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Transcipt
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And we're so honored to be joined today by Samara Breger. Samara, welcome to the show.
SAMARA: Thank you for having me, I'm so excited to be here.
JULIA: It's always a pleasure, and would you mind just starting us off by telling the audience who you are, what you do, and then we'll get into things.
SAMARA: Sure. I'm Samara, I'm a writer and a performer and I live in New York. And my sapphic vampire gothic, A Longtime Dead came out last month.
JULIA: It did indeed. If I recall correctly, the New York Times called it the best sapphic vampire novel since Carmilla.
SAMARA: They might have said something along those lines.
JULIA: Maybe. Who can say really, you know?
SAMARA: Who can say—
JULIA: Just the New York Times.
SAMARA: —the five copies that I purchased downstairs.
JULIA: All in shadow boxes, like my husband, did when we got mentioned in the New York Times.
SAMARA: Exactly.
JULIA: Yeah, I feel that I feel that vibe. Incredible. Well, can you tell us a little bit about the novel, and then we'll get into the—the heart of what we want to talk about today?
SAMARA: Sure. So it's kind of an old-school Gothic horror, it takes place from 1937 to 35 years from that point. And it is about these two people, one of whom was a vampire for almost two centuries, her name is Roisin, and one is Poppy, she was just turned. And it's about their romance and their pasts, and a big found family that they're part of in Victorian London, and it's decadent and exciting and a little bit scary and a little bit gory, and it was fun to write and I hope it's fun to read.
JULIA: I—I can assure you listeners, it is.
AMANDA: You crossed my algorithm when you wrote an article for Alma, about reclaiming vampires as queer and Jewish.
SAMARA: Yes.
AMANDA: And as a queer Jew and someone who loves vampires, I was like, gotta reach out, we just have to talk whether or not it's about any of this stuff. I love that, I love that you've written about our Flag Means Death. It just— it seems like you are a person whose interests overlap highly with hours. And so chatting with you about all things, folklore, and hopefully drawing folks to go ahead and rent or buy your book is all the best, all the better.
SAMARA: Yes. And if you're interested in my book, please get it from a library. I get so excited when I see the library stickers on the spine of that oh, it really does it for me.
JULIA: Oh boy. Now, I gotta go to my library and order it up, even though I've read it already it's fine, don't worry about it.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: So I guess maybe to get us started, do you want to tell us why vampires? What about vampires kind of attracts you in a way, and then what about it like, do you remember the first vampire lore or vampire story you read or saw or heard?
SAMARA: So definitely my first vampire was the Count on Sesame Street.
JULIA: Classic.
SAMARA: I loved him. He sounded like my grandmother. My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor from Germany. So I was always drawn to, you know, Central European, Eastern European heavy accented people, because those are my people. And yeah, I've just— I've really loved vampires, especially the silly ones. I love The What we do in the Shadows vampires. I love in the movie Forgetting Sarah Marshall, the Dracula Musical, The Puppet Musical.
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: But yeah, I hadn't planned to write a vampire novel, until two other publisher or two other writers of my publisher, Anna Burt, Jen Alexandra approached me and said, do you want to write a novella, and we'll put them out as a trilogy? And I was like, yeah, that'll—that'll be easy. And I initially modeled it after— if you've seen the episode of the first season of Good Omens, where Crowley and Aziraphale, you know, immortal beings meet each other throughout history. If you like Our Flag Means Death we— we probably have a lot of overlapping interests. Yeah. And they meet each other throughout, you know, history and a whole bunch of different locales and eras, and I wanted to do that with vampires. So I wrote a novella, and then Anna Burt came to me and said, mine's a novel, can yours be a novel? And I was like, no, no more. No, I'm done. And then I—I sat down and I thought about it and I've always really loved gothic literature, I got a very bad grade in my gothic literature class in college. Aside from that, I've really just adored it, and I—I really sat down and thought about, if I had the opportunity to do this, if I dedicated myself to this project, what it would look like and what I wanted to address and what parameters I wanted to—to set for myself. And that's when I started thinking about myself as a Jewish writer in this context. And that's—that's when I started to make some— some choices.
JULIA: Oh, incredible. Well, let's—let's talk about some of those— those choices, shall we?
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: Because we—we've talked a little bit on the show about the kind of antisemitic roots of vampires. We—
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: —we did a vampire bracket earlier on—was that last year? Time flies by.
AMANDA: Yes.
SAMARA: Who won? Who won the vampire bracket?
JULIA: Carmilla, obviously.
SAMARA: Oh, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Of course. Yeah. Who else really?
SAMARA: Were discerning, we know what we're talking about. Yes.
JULIA: So we—we talked about that and particularly talking about the anti-semitic roots of Bram Stoker's Dracula. And would you mind at least, for—just kind of talking us through the different beats and the kind of origins and guess, I guess, antisemitic stereotypes that Bram Stoker was utilizing in Dracula?
SAMARA: So when Bram Stoker wrote Dracula and I, I want to preface by saying, I don't think this was maliciously antisemitic horror really reveals what our cultural anxieties are at the time. And at the time, there were a lot of Jews emigrating to England, to flee pogroms in Eastern Europe. There was this view that I think persists in certain parts of British society. That blood was an indicator of temperament, you know, there's like the blue-blooded upper crust people who have good breeding. And then there are the other races that are you know, in a—in a very eugenic see way, more prone to violence and sexual degeneracy and predation. So Dracula is this Orientalist figure, he is of the [7:21] Eastern European. He drinks blood, he preys on people, that goes back to the issue of blood libel, which is an anti semitic stereotype that has gone back to medieval times, medieval times.
JULIA: Not the restaurant chain.
SAMARA: Yeah, exactly.
AMANDA: Not the fun one, not the turkey leg.
JULIA: No.
SAMARA: You know, the word Kabal comes from Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism, and—and the large nose and the effeminate character of Dracula being part of this, you know, Jewish sexual degeneracy and hoarded wealth, and illness, just bringing you know this—there was this theme of invasion literature of these outside populations bringing weakness into the British Empire. So—so a lot of that is in Dracula. A side note, I love Dracula. I thi— I think, you know, it's— it's a complicated book to hold in my mind, but it's also a hugely entertaining piece of literature, and it's also exceptionally funny. And I think that now with Dracula Daily—
JULIA: I was about to ask you about Dracula Daily, so thank you for getting there.
SAMARA: I love Dracula Daily, I—seeing Jonathan Harker memes on Tumblr.
JULIA: It's paprika!
SAMARA: Oh, paprika. I put that in my— I put the paprika in my book, I couldn't leave it out.
JULIA: Of course.
SAMARA: But yeah, but—but seeing all the close reads of it has been hugely encouraging and exciting, and like the amount of—of— I know it sounds—it sounds kind of patronizing, but like the amount of reading comprehension that's been going on with Dracula now i— is really exciting.
JULIA: Yeah, a lot of people you know, they'll— they'll read for pleasure and stuff like that, but it's been a minute since a lot of people have like written an essay about why this book means this, and you know, the parallels and allegories and metaphors and whatnot. So it is kind of nice to go on Tumblr and be like, yeah, you guys all get it now. I love it.
SAMARA: Yeah, absolutely. Dracula is complicated.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. And it is kind of good to know sometimes that like, you know, we can acknowledge the like anti semitic traits that are reflected in the novel while also being like really is the forefather of what vampire literature would become later on.
SAMARA: Yes.
JULIA: So, I—yeah, it is nice to kind of balance those two as we look into it, because it is it influential in many ways, even if it does harp on some of the more destructive stereotypes that exist out there for Jewish people.
SAMARA: For sure.
AMANDA: Yeah. And at the risk of quoting you to use. So in this Alma piece that you wrote about queer Jewish vampires and loving vampires as a queer Jew, you know, you write about how queer communities have always, quote, molded the dirt thrown at us into treasures, like the word queer. And so that—that is very much, you know, we can—we can see portrayals of queer characters, of Jewish characters that were drawn from harmful stereotypes. And say, you know what, fuck you, and I loved them. And that's a—a response that I love, and it feels like you've kind of gone another step and you write to in the piece about, you know, whether you don't make any of the characters in your book Jewish.
SAMARA: I did not. Yeah.
AMANDA: And I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about the—the decision not to kind of engage with that whole legacy that, you know, is both an unfair burden for you to weigh when telling your own stories and also just like the lived milieu of your life.
SAMARA: Yeah, I don't want to say I regret not doing it. But between starting this book and now, there has been a kind of meteoric rise in new antisemitism, nouveau antisemitism.
AMANDA: The fresh—the fresh, fresh.
SAMARA: Yeah, exactly.
AMANDA: Not even the old, old.
JULIA: The fresh, fresh.
SAMARA: Fresh baked. And I, I wonder whether or not it was a cop-out. But there was a part of me that had a visceral reaction to making Jewish characters drink blood. This is a horror book, and it's a lot of things, it's partially horrible. And there are some scenes of like very animalistic, rabid blood drinking, and I couldn't do it, I just couldn't do it. And I thought maybe, you know, I don't try to do anything with my books other than write a book. It's not like I want this book to change this for— I just—I want to write a book. But I was kind of hoping that like coming at it sideways, you know, taking away these very like casually, inadvertently, antisemitic tropes would help, like, sweep away some of that, you know, [12:29] antisemitism that's in this genre, you know what I mean?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Totally.
SAMARA: Because you still—I mean, you still see it, like, it's still you know, I— in that—in that Alma piece, I feel kind of unfair to the people who—who made this show, but there's a show called First Kill. And when I was watching it, and it's—it's you know, a lesbian vampire show that a lot of people loved. But when I was watching it, I was like, oh, my God. Like this—this one, this one they took, they took everything. Uh-oh, there's some hopefully extremely inadvertent antisemitism in this that's still happening.
JULIA: Yeah, you can always tell when a Christian wrote a vampire thing when they do like, ah, you know, the demon Lilith, and you're like, uhh, actually do you know who Lilith was actually was?
AMANDA: We pause on this for— for three seconds, yeah, there's a lot. And I'm—I'm a Jew by choice. And so that—that was one of the—the things that for me, you know, there—there's garden variety antisemitism that we all know about, our thought or you know, growing up Christian, you know, caricatures and stereotypes that I—I knew to be false. And then there's like, the—the more pernicious, so normalized and baked in society parts of anti semitism, that you know, it—it took a Jewish perspective in education to, for me to realize. And so even— even now, you know, within the community, realizing that there are you know, there are so many ways that you know, that the kind of concept of blood libel and a blood-drinking and of all of the things related to you know, blood, especially when it comes to horror, sci-fi, fantasy stuff I love that is so baked into the folklore of what we retell and the things that we think. You know, I'm sure for many people inadvertently, just kind of like reproduce a trope that they have seen reproduced before them.
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And that's why I'm— I'm grateful, it's often in the reclaiming that I realized, oh, yeah, no, the origins of that is—is pretty fucked up and I love this queer Jewish take on this thing that was meant to exile and use the perspectives and, you know, sort of character traits of queer people, of Jews to—
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —point at us, it's different. It's a very queer response, very Jewish response to say, mmm, I'm fine over here. Like, go fuck yourself and I'm gonna enjoy it. Yeah.
SAMARA: I'm gonna— I'm gonna pick my battles.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Yeah, it reminds me gosh, like, there was somebody on Tiktok maybe last year who was doing this goblin character with the big hook nose talking about all their coins. And were like, hey, [14;57], hey, don't do that. And the response was like can we not do anything? Can we not? Like you—of course, you can. You can do it thoughtfully. You can do goblins thoughtfully. You can do vampires thoughtfully, just—just think about it for a sec, you know?
JULIA: Think about why these particular traits are being used and where they came from, and then be like, hey, let's not continue it if we don't have to.
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah. My husband, Eric, [15:24] well, about the antisemitism baked into Dungeons and Dragons, and all kinds of traditional high fantasy.
SAMARA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: And the, you know, the race, quote-unquote, of the "Goblin" that, you know, has certain Eastern European characteristics and is, you know, short and predacious. And, you know, hoards wealth and all these things. Once you—once you see it, you can't unsee it. And again, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy them or make interesting smart choices, it means that you are aware of where these things come from, and how to, you know, make it less harmful to people, first of all, and secondly, hopefully, more welcoming. And also, thirdly, better and more creative as we move forward.
SAMARA: Yes. And also to recognize that it's not always inadvertent antisemitism, sometimes it's straight-up anti semitism and like, mm mmm. We should—
AMANDA: Yeah.
SAMARA: We should keep an eye out.
AMANDA: Gringotts is no accident, and that's—
SAMARA: Oh, no.
AMANDA: —that's all safe out there.
SAMARA: Oh, god.
AMANDA: But there's also so much queer and Jewish and just horror-loving joy in, in this book and in your work. And can you tell me a little bit about what you love about vampire stories, and especially about queer vampires? I know my answers, vampire so always read as super queer to me.
SAMARA: Yes.
AMANDA: Tell me— just tell me more. Yeah, but like your—your love for this genre and how you maybe hope to, like contribute to you know, the broader canon of sapphic vampire stories.
SAMARA: Yeah, I'd be happy to talk about that. So when I read Carmilla, a lot of it clicked for me. Because that book, you know, there are a lot of queerphobic stereotypes in that book, but there's so much humanization as well. And there's so much like empathy, with—with Carmilla with that kind of thing. Because there is something so sexy about a monster that is so fixated on you. To the point where like, kissing them isn't enough, they want to be inside you taking your blood, like getting strength from you, obsessed with you in your mind. Turning into a cat sitting on your bed, like doing— doing weird shit, because all they can think about is you. And like, there is this—this very insidious stereotype of queer people that has been used a lot now, especially against trans people, is that we're all predators, you know, that we're all lurking in bathrooms trying to do terrible things to people and that's not true obviously.
AMANDA: We are chastely touching pinkies only in mainstream media apps and—
SAMARA: Absolutely.
AMANDA: —extrapolating from that, that one day somebody might kiss.
SAMARA: Absolutely. God, I remember when they first—the—the gay guys kissed on Modern Family, like in the background like, but there is something sexy, I'm thinking of like, you know, mid-century lesbian pulp. There's something so sexy about like the older co-ed who is sort of eyeing you and finding you and lacking in on you in that way. And it's—it's partially sexy because it's in real life, it's not okay.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: As is so much of everybody's sexuality.
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And especially straight sexuality of sex industry. I know, I know like you've 1000 thoughts on this.
SAMARA: I have so many thoughts.
AMANDA: I'm preaching to the choir here as I'm— as I'm adding on.
SAMARA: Yes. There is this thing. I don't want to get too in the weeds with this because I could talk about it forever. But there is this moral purity that's called for in fiction now. Which, like, I understand, I understand that if it's like a book for you know, teens, if it's YA I understand not, you know, putting in something that's dangerous, but if it's for adults, I think that we have the understanding and the— the reading comprehension to say like, okay, well, this is fiction and fiction is not life, and it won't be, and these people are vampires, and it's fine.
JULIA: I think there's also something appealing in a queer perspective about Carmilla, especially the fact that it was published in 1872, I think.
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: And like the idea of, I imagine for like, queer women at the time who are reading this, the idea of someone actually actively pursuing you, rather than just having to like kind of hide in the shadows your true like feelings and intentions and whatnot. And so I think that—that kind of adds to the— the sexiness. It doesn't seem predatory, one that's what you want someone to do and society denies it from you.
SAMARA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, have you read the [20:09] version of Carmilla with Carmen Maria Machado's annotations?
JULIA: No, I haven't yet. Is it—I can imagine it's good. [20:17]
SAMARA: [20:17]
JULIA: And one note is like, if this isn't an orgasm, I don't know what is.
SAMARA: Like [20:23] this vague but not vague—
AMANDA: Yeah.
SAMARA: —description of an orgasm.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SAMARA: And I'm sure that was hugely freeing for people who saw themselves in it.
JULIA: Absolutely. And you know, like, we're talking from a queer perspective. And like we were saying before, like vampires have always been kind of queer coded in some way, whether it's like the more quote-unquote a “feminine nature of Brams Stoker's Dracula” from Carmilla and— and everything beyond that, it really does seem like the gays have always loved monster fucking in general, but in particular vampires.
SAMARA: Yes!
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: If society calls us monsters like we're gonna fuck, I don't know what to tell you.
SAMARA: [21:06] what else are we supposed to do? it's like—
AMANDA: I don't know.
SAMARA: Learning this is—this is— this is maybe a little simplistic, that like The Little Mermaid, learning about the making of The Little Mermaid and Howard Ashman being a gay man. And, you know, Ursula, being divine, being based on divine, being based on a drag queen is like, oh, we're in there, and we're the more interesting ones and—and we can't—maybe we don't see ourselves, you know, as the two main people who are getting to kiss each other. But—but look—look what beauty we've created in the margins, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah. Even as, as a fat person growing up, like before, I knew that I was queer, I was like, you know what Ursula is like, you know, has a body like mine and is like living her life and loves it. Like there are—
JULIA: [21:53] Amanda?
AMANDA: Yeah, yes. Well, I mean, listen, that could have been interesting to me too, but I didn't know why [21:59]
SAMARA: Tentacles get a bad rep, that's what I say.
AMANDA: I know. They're just—they're just fingers.
JULIA: They're just—they're just you know.
AMANDA: Julia, like I don't know about that.
JULIA: I don't know about that. But listen man, I'm not gonna yak your yum, that’s on you.
AMANDA: I don't know. There's so much to love here and especially in horror. You know, Julia and I have been friends our whole lives and loving horror and loving fantasy, loving sci-fi. You know, it is in these kinds of otherworldly environments that we can start to imagine societies that are radically different welcoming, where you know, kinds of loves, relationships, friendships, found family, like there's a reason why that's a trope, right? Like, it's—it is often in places that look the most unlike our world, that we can sort of imagine what that relationship, love, truth, personal journey could look like in our everyday reality. And I don't know, I am glad that so much as sort of like genre fiction, right, or like genre movies as a overly simplistic like reductive term. It feels like we're in a renaissance of that kind of production and also critical acclaim.
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But part of me feels a little territorial, like the kid was like, well, I liked that band before they opened for Paramore, or whatever. Because you know, I'm like, well, I don't know, I've always collected my like my, you know, five sent like horror novels from garage sales. I—overall, I am so glad that there is a market for stuff like this more and more.
SAMARA: Yeah. Yeah, me too. And I'm also somewhat conflicted. Yes.
JULIA: No, yeah. like there is a certain like conflict there. And going back to your suggestion of The Little Mermaid, this idea that Disney did a lot of which is like kind of queer-coded villains. And then all of a sudden, you have a generation of kids who are like, fuck, your Ursula, Jafar is my guy, like, all this kind of stuff, and they're like, no, no, you weren't supposed to like it. I'm like, well, then why did you make them look like me? Why did you decide like, was I supposed to not like them because they looked like me? No, no, I'm gonna like them even more so because I see myself in them, right?
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: And it's this idea and I'm—I'm like, fairly convinced that that is part of the reason why like we get these like generations of monster fuckers. Whether it's like Guillermo del Toro, who grew up with the—the creature from the Black Lagoon, or like our generation with all of the Disney queer folks, the queer coded villains. I think that's like, you create like, they're creating the monster that they're afraid of in queer people, which I am like.
SAMARA: Absolutely.
JULIA: Sucks to sucks. Alright, we're gonna reclaim all of these for ourselves. Thank you.
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. This is fantastic, why don't we very quickly grab a refill, and then we'll talk a little bit more about queer vampires and whatnot, alright?
SAMARA: Yeah.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. First off, I got to thank our new patron, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. You guys are the lifeblood, the backbone of our community and you help us do what we do every single gosh darn week, so thank you so much. And thank you of course to our supporting producer-level patrons Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. As well as our legend-level patrons Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. You can join them and help us do what we do by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And hey, did you know that if you join the Patreon you get first crack at new merch that we are making. So check it out, go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast right now. I have a little recommendation for you. And I also owe editor Eric an apology, he has been recommending this game to me for a very long time and I finally picked it up last night, it is called Inscryption and it is essentially a card game but it's also so much more than that. There is a lot going on, and I just started playing the game so I don't know exactly everything that's going on. But if you like the kind of creepy, mysterious kind of horrory vibe that we usually talk about here on the show, I think you'll like Inscryption, Check it out, there's a link in the bio. I also of course want to tell you about another podcast here on the Multitude collective. Have you listened yet to Join the Party? Join the Party is an actual play podcast with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators who make each other laugh each week including myself and Amanda. DM Eric and myself, Amanda, Julia, and Brandon welcome everyone to the table from lifelong tabletop RPG players to folks who have never touched a role-playing game before. You can hop into our current campaign, which is a pirate story set in a world of plant and bug folk or you can marathon through our completed campaigns with the Camp Paign: A Monster the Week game that is set in a weird summer camp. Campaign Two for a modern superhero game or Campaign One for a high fantasy story. And once a month, we released the after party where we answer your questions about the show and how we play the game. So what are you waiting for, pull up a chair and Join the Party. Search for Join the Party in your podcast app or go to jointhepartypod.com This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. And I want you to take a moment and think about how you spent your last week. How much of that time that you spent in your last week was for yourself, versus how much of that time did you spend on other people? Do you know how to balance the two? It gets so easy to get caught up in what everyone else needs from you and never to take a moment to think about what you need for yourself. I have been running a lot of errands lately for my parents because they recently moved back into town. And it's just you know, I have to sometimes balance my time and the energy that I need to focus on myself with what they need and how I can help them. And that's something that I talk to my therapist a lot. And therapy can really give you the tools that you need to find more balance in your life so that you can help keep supporting others without leaving yourself behind. I, as I've mentioned before, have been going to therapy for a very long time now. And I really think that honestly, anyone would benefit from going to therapy even if you think you don't need it. Even if you think you're like well adjusted and you have no problems and you're not an anxious person or you don't have depression. 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JULIA: Alright now that we are back, Samara, as always we love to ask our guests here, what have you been drinking lately? Whether that's cocktails, mocktails, coffee, teas, lemonades, iced teas, what's been your— your cup of choice lately?
SAMARA: Um, I have not been drinking alcohol for probably like, two or three years now.
JULIA: Shout out.
SAMARA: But there—there is a drink that Lizzo enjoys it, Starbucks that I also enjoy at Starbucks because I'm—
AMANDA: Oh, damn.
SAMARA: —just like Lizzo.
JULIA: I love a Starbucks creation, so I'm here with you, you're ready to go.
SAMARA: It's coconut milk matcha frappe with chai, and I enjoy it.
JULIA: Yes. I would never think to add matcha and chai together, but that does sound good now you're saying it.
SAMARA: It's herbaceous, it's sweet.
AMANDA: Earthy, yeah.
SAMARA: It's a little— a little Christmasy on the end there.
JULIA: Amanda can enjoy it because it's coconut and not like regular mill [32:49]
AMANDA: There you got me. I've never felt more welcomed to a community than I have by the IBS memes and Judaism.
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like truly, thank you.
SAMARA: Yes.
AMANDA: [32:57] the internet for—for welcoming me in.
SAMARA: We welcome, you and your lactose-free lifestyle. Yes.
AMANDA: Thank you. Thank you.
JULIA: Oh, my gosh. Simply couldn't relate, I'm sorry, guys. I eat so much [33:09] and cheese.
AMANDA: I know.
SAMARA: Oh, a milk drinker.
JULIA: I know, I'm sorry. I mean, we mostly have almond milk in my house because my husband's like, it upsets my tum, I'm like, okay, that's fine, whatever. But yeah, I can't get rid of the cheese guys, I simply can't. I was a cheesemonger for like a decade.
SAMARA: My wife likes to put cream in her coffee, and then just walk around and have a full day afterwards. Yeah, bizarre.
AMANDA: Yeah, that—that would be my whole— my whole— my whole day.
SAMARA: Yeah, who—who's the real monster here, huh?
JULIA: It's me, it's me the milk drinker.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SAMARA: Blood? Yes, milk? No.
JULIA: No, simply not. So in your article and also, the article quotes a great part of your book where you were talking about kind of the dietary laws in Judaism and how they applied to vampires, right?
SAMARA: Yes.
JULIA: And one, this is— learning about Judaism through Amanda and Amanda's conversion and through fabulous guests that we've had on the show. One of my favorite things is just the arguments that Rabbis get into about how to apply like Jewish law and whatnot. Where—where do you fall in whether or not you think vampires could drink blood of an animal that they considered clean or not?
SAMARA: Well, Jewish law wants to keep you alive. When you— when you get down to it, if you're worried about your life and your well-being, do the thing. That's— that's generally what it comes down to. And I think you know, Rabbinically speaking, [34:41] medically speaking, these vampires can definitely keep kosher and drink the blood of a cow. I—If—if I were a vampire in the situation, and I kept kosher, which I do not in real life, I think that I would happily drain a number of cows. I think the Midwest would fear me.
AMANDA: And then yeah, you'd write some commentary on it and then say like, this rabbi from five decades ago didn't know what the hell he was talking about, and that's gonna get down.
SAMARA: That's right.
AMANDA: So anyone in the future who knows that I'm right, has some precedents to point back to me.
SAMARA: That's correct.
JULIA: Did anyone else in this call ever watched the movie The Littlest Vampire?
SAMARA: No.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: It is a movie in which a small boy vampire drinks cow blood, and then accidentally transforms all the cows into vampire cows. And it is quite a moment and it still sticks in my brain. I haven't thought about that movie in like 20-something years, probably. So I'm going to try to grab a clip of it for our patrons for the director's commentary for this episode so you'll know what I'm talking about.
SAMARA: Oh, my God.
JULIA: But I just remember there's like—
AMANDA: Sounds so good.
JULIA: Cows in a barn hanging upside down, and it was incredibly funny.
SAMARA: That's a great visual gag. I love that.
JULIA: Yeah, it was really, really cute and live-action too. So I was like—
SAMARA: Wow!
JULIA: —gotta get those cows up there.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, it's a live-action movie?
JULIA: It's a live-action movie, baby.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Yeah.
SAMARA: I was imagining like a 90s cartoon straight to VHS but—
JULIA: It does seem like it's that vibe, but I'm pretty sure that it was a live-action film.
AMANDA: No, I just—I just brought it up. There's a real—it's like somebody put Hocus Pocus and Tim Burton, on their mood board and like Home Alone and out popped this—this cover image.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Hang on, I'm going to find a way to put this into the chat.
JULIA: Oh my gosh, it's just what I imagined.
AMANDA: We're going to need your live reaction to this Samara.
SAMARA: Oh, that's Jonathan Lipnicki.
AMANDA: Yeah!
JULIA: It is.
SAMARA: That's your pal in mind, Jonathan Lipnicki.
JULIA: Sure is. And you can see the flying vampire cows in the background too in the poster.
SAMARA: Oh my god, this is incredible. They absolutely had Hocus Pocus in that mood board that— that—
AMANDA: Yeah.
SAMARA: Goobie hair.
JULIA: 100% yeah.
AMANDA: [36:53] hair, yeah, yeah.
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: [36:53] their hair.
SAMARA: Oh, incredible.
JULIA: [36;55]
AMANDA: Amazing.
SAMARA: And there's there's some Addams Family in there too that—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
SAMARA: [36:59] [37:02]
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Gun, question mark.
JULIA: Question mark gun. And then the like rebellious, older teenage brother on there on the right, yeah, it's—
SAMARA: Oh my god.
JULIA: Sorry, to totally sidebars to talk about The Littlest Vampire or sorry, The Little Vampire.
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: But man, my childhood just came flashing before my eyes there, so.
SAMARA: This my next movie night.
AMANDA: Yay.
SAMARA: If it exists. It's hard to find movies these days. But if I can get my hands on this Little Vampire, I'm gonna watch 'em.
AMANDA: Speaking of childhood influences, I would love to know some of the mythology and also urban legends that you grew up with. Do any of them like loom large in your mind these days?
SAMARA: I didn't have a ton of, because I'm—I'm from New York City. I grew up in the city, so I don't—we didn't have like hometown, spooky guy. But my wife and my mother-in-law are deeply into cryptids.
AMANDA: Very nice, very decerning.
SAMARA: So in my—my adulthood.
AMANDA: Good family you married into.
SAMARA: Yes, yes. I'm absolutely learning about cryptids, and they're wacky.
JULIA: They are wacky. Do you have a favorite right now as you're learning more about them?
SAMARA: I like the Florida Dog Man, he's pretty cool.
JULIA: [38;15]
SAMARA: But growing up I was more— I— you know, I was one of those gay kids that was into Greek Gods.
JULIA: Shout out, welcome home.
AMANDA: [38:23] people again [38:24]
SAMARA: Yay! And you know, like Egyptian mythology, like, I've early formative memories of going to the Met—Metropolitan Museum of Art and going into the Egyptian room and like, oh, oh, yes. I need to learn about this type of thing.
JULIA: Temple Dendur, we've all been there. We all love it.
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah. Did you also read Annie on my Mind and have both a mythological and queer awakening?
SAMARA: No, I did not. But I did read the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Paisley Frankweiler.
JULIA: Another one of Amanda's favorites.
AMANDA: Sure. Seriously. In any of my mind two— two girls have a [38:57] in I think it's the American Museum of Natural History, but I always transpose that in my mind to like be in front of the Temple of Dendur in the Met.
JULIA: But there's also dinosaurs there now.
SAMARA: I love that.
JULIA: Oh gosh. Amanda, I love that for you. Amazing.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, oh yeah.
JULIA: Were you also like a— like a crystal queer as a kid as well, because I was a bit crystal queer I was like—
SAMARA: No.
JULIA: —look at this amethyst that I got it on a street fair one day.
SAMARA: I wasn't into crystals and as an adult I'm— I'm fairly anti-crystal, which is like my bit—
JULIA: That's fair.
SAMARA: —gay trait.
JULIA: That's okay.
SAMARA: I also am not into Ta— I'm not into crystals or Taylor Swift, which I feel like it's turning my back on my community.
JULIA: It's fine, I can drive so that's my anti-queer quality.
SAMARA: Incredible I can not—
AMANDA: And I like math, so you know—
SAMARA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Here we all are.
SAMARA: Wow.
JULIA: We all balanced each other out here.
SAMARA: Defying stereotypes. But I, you know what, I loved Teen Witch so much as a kid—
JULIA: Heck yeah.
SAMARA: That we had this like write a little novel project in maybe first or second grade and I wrote a book called Preteen Witch, which was like a very clear self-insert. And she— she made it so—there were no more drugs in the world because I was a little narc, I guess.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. They—they got you dare early home.
SAMARA: Yeah, and yeah.
JULIA: Oh, that's fine, we won't hold that against you.
AMANDA: You've learned, we've all learned.
SAMARA: I have learned.
JULIA: We all learned that it was all propaganda you know like we all learned.
SAMARA: We all learned, some of us the hard way.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: There's something I wanted to ask you, again related to the article because you dropped, not a bomb for me because it was something that I was familiar with, but I hadn't heard the phrase in like, oh, like since college, right? Can you tell us about estuaries?
SAMARA: Can I or can't I? I don't know. I don't know that much about estuaries. I know that they're a part of Jewish folklore and they are not Jewish. They—
JULIA: Fair, fair.
SAMARA: —they prey on Jewish people, their— their blood drinkers, they're vampires. Because blood-drinking creatures show up in so many cultures you know, throughout history, people say like, vampires aren't anti-semitic, there's like, Chinese vampires from 7000. It's like, yes, there are, and our modern conception of vampires is based on antisemitic stereotypes.
JULIA: Yeah, like those ones, you know, are not committing blood libel and look, the way that you would, if you were Bram Stoker describe a Jewish person and like, you know, there's context there.
SAMARA: Exactly.
JULIA: You know just because something drinks blood does not necessarily make it a vampire, that's just the like, overarching term that we as Western society has put into place for it.
SAMARA: Yes. And that's— that's the case with the estuaries, they're vampires and they're not vampires. Maybe it's like Gollum times old—old school times. Yeah, so that's where we are and it's super scary Jewish, adjacent, I think Lady vampires.
JULIA: You know, what I kinda like about this, though, is the idea that this is the opposite of what the anti semitic vampire is. We're these are specifically like these vampires or demons or what have you that attack Jewish people, rather than these characters that like are supposed to be a stand in for Jewish people attacking, you know, Christians?
SAMARA: Yes.
JULIA: But I just really love that this is kind of the opposite of the antisemitic stereotype. I think that's a really interesting play on and obviously predates the kind of modern Bram Stoker Dracula by several 100 years,
SAMARA: And I'm reading here, it's got a lot of overlap with succubi. So there's always this like sexual component. I think that a lot of the fear that comes into the, the female vampire has to do with, you know, female sexual initiative, I guess?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: You know, female sexual dominance, or just, you know, female sexual agency. And yeah, the— the Succubus, and an estuaries have that in common.
JULIA: And I think that ties back again to the idea of queerness, and vampires as well, the idea of women not being this kind of subservient, sexual role in, in or outside of the bedroom. And the— especially with Carmilla, because we're going to keep talking about Carmilla, we love her so much.
SAMARA: Yeah.
JULIA: Being that kind of, and you wrote fantastically about this in your Alma article, as well. But like, taking women out of the equation for men, and that's what makes her so dangerous.
SAMARA: Yes. These things that are very terrifying to those who exist very comfortably within mainstream society and these mainstream dynamics, thinking of, you know, women being submissive and receptive, and then there's this, you know, woman that comes along, that's terrifying because she's outside of this. And, you know, at the time around, you know the end of the 19th century, there was this idea of the new woman who was coming into more social power and had more of a role outside of the home, more of a role in society and potentially in the workforce.
JULIA: Wore pants.
SAMARA: [44:11]
JULIA: [44:13]
SAMARA: [44:14] this fear any dominant culture gets this terrible fear when—when a culture that is the non-dominant culture gets any sort of power, because it's like, oh, my God, they're replacing us. They're coming for us, they're taking our jobs and our women. And I think that a lot of that new woman anxiety comes into the, you know, female vampires at this time. They're taking the place of men, and now women will love them, our women as they love men.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SAMARA: You know, they have no need for us anymore.
JULIA: If only that were true.
AMANDA: I think there is so much about mortality there too, right? Or like underscoring all of these concerns about like, whether it is queerness and queer folks taking away from almost like generational permanence or, you know, an outside population coming through and that's where you get eugenicsy with the, you know, discussions about like the bloodlines and things like that. Or even I think the female vampire in particular, my unscholarly supposition is that there is some kind of primal fear about like in Christian viewpoints a like fundamentally, like productive to result in pregnancy act not being used for that, and that's what makes queerness seem so alien, and that's what makes monster fucking right? And like looking vampires and creatures that reproduce differently or don't reproduce at all. Like that is ultimately a anxiety about mortality and permanence, and like, what happens to me after I die, that I think is behind so much of the— for me like an understandable visceral fear, when it comes to how other people live their lives.
SAMARA: Absolutely. That's a really great point. I like that.
AMANDA: Listen, you know, if I was a scholar, I'd write a paper about it, but instead I get to opine on a podcast.
JULIA: I was gonna say you don't have to qualify it, Amanda, you know. That was a scholarly opinion to my mind.
SAMARA: That is scholarly as hell.
AMANDA: Thanks.
JULIA: Yeah.
SAMARA: It also it reminds me of in Dracula, you've got two fantastic female characters. And from a distance I mean, you've got Lucy Westerman, Mina Harker, and from a distance it's like a yes, this Madonna whore dichotomy right? Like the one who has three suitors.
JULIA: One of them's a cowboy.
SAMARA: Is the one who gets turned into a vampire. And then the one who like is dutifully by her husband is the one that survives. But it's far more complicated than that. It's not as simple as that, because Lucy has the love of these three men at the end of her life, and at the, start of her new life, these three men are there because they love her and they respect her and they give their blood to her numerous times. And, you know, Mina is communicating with Jonathan in shorthand, and she's writing his letters, and she's traveling to get him when he is sick. And—and these are two women characters with agency and with extremely different personalities, and neither one of them I feel is condemned for who they are, you know, I don't think that Lucy is being punished. I think that's just that's just how the story goes.
AMANDA: Yeah. And that brings up the final specter of this episode, which is capitalism, and—
SAMARA: Oh, no!
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: It's always a looming overhead.
AMANDA: Yeah and—
SAMARA: It really is.
AMANDA: No, but seriously, like, if— if people with wombs aren't, you know, producing the, you know, the like product of the next generation of workers, then that represents an existential threat. And whether that's because—
SAMARA: Yes.
AMANDA: —you know, they are not having the kind of sex that can result in being pregnant, or they have become a vampire. Or they are, you know, consorting with, you know, less desirable than you know, the establishment would like them to and producing the wrong kinds of children. You know, all of that is what starts getting coded as villainous, morally wrong, and a threat to national security.
SAMARA: Yes.
AMANDA: And that's the kind of stuff that makes me do a double take and pay closer attention because that's where the creativity is, and that's where the coolness is, and it truly is in the shadows.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And that's what I like to read, it's what I like to watch and to do.
JULIA: Yeah.
SAMARA: Yeah, I think, you know, for capitalism to thrive, there's always got to be this scarcity mentality. There's always going to be like, if we don't keep going, everything will fall apart. And it really— it really limits people. I think, you know, being afraid for fun is great, but being afraid for profit is stunting.
JULIA: Yes.
SAMARA: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, capitalism.
JULIA: Capitalism. Really, we talked about a lot of monsters here on the podcast, the worst one is capitalism.
SAMARA: Yeah. And we can't even see him, he's the invisible hand.
JULIA: Yeah.
SAMARA: There—I— just made a Tiktok and it's my most popular Tiktok by far. It's got like 27,000 likes.
JULIA: Dang.
AMANDA: Oh, dang.
SAMARA: And it's my wife's beige flag is that she always talks about her favorite ever job, which was working at a grocery store. And she— whenever we're in Trader Joe's she sighs wistfully like we are visiting her old high school and she was the quarterback. And so many people in the comments are like I was meant to stack cabbage, I was meant to scoop ice cream. My brain was at peace. I was happy as long—if I could just have a living wage, doing this job and then go home and my brain is unencumbered by data sheets and—and HR complaints like my life would be bliss.
JULIA: Yeah.
SAMARA: And it was a it was a fun little reminder of how shackled we all are by capitalism.
JULIA: You know what, there is like sometimes just this idea that, hey, if I could just live a simpler life and not have to worry about making money, there's plenty of jobs that I would do that don't pay enough nowadays, but I could actually do them, and that's fine. I get—I get where your wife is coming from—
SAMARA: Yes.
JULIA: —with that.
SAMARA: Yes.
JULIA: I simply do.
SAMARA: If a grocer could have a living wage, and in a lot of ways, like the dignity of having a job, you know.
AMANDA: For doing, I don't know, essential work that all of us require.
SAMARA: Exactly. There is something you know, people do not get respect for doing that, that kind of work. But if people did, this is not about vampires, but anyway.
JULIA: It's alright, that's alright.
AMANDA: Well, it sounds like we want to continue the conversation with you as a person, and I'm sure our listeners are feeling like God, it's like we're friends already. So Samara where can our listeners buy or request from their local libraries, but you can just do by walking in or submitting a ticket on their website.
JULIA: Talk to a librarian.
AMANDA: Exactly. Where—where can they become internet friends with you?
SAMARA: I'm on Instagram @yesjbreg, Y E S J BREG. It's not great for my SEO, but there it is.
AMANDA: Same.
SAMARA: And on Twitter, I'm @samarajbreger, and on. Tiktok, I'm @samarajbreger, and my website is samara.breger.com.
JULIA: There you go. Well, listeners, first off Samara, thank you so much for joining us today.
SAMARA: Thank you for having me.
JULIA: It was a delight. Thank you so much, that was a wonderful casual conversation about hey, vampires and queerness.
AMANDA: Vampires and shit.
JULIA: And listeners next time you are approached by hot sapphic vampire remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KA
Editor: KM