Episode 337: The Fairy Tale Tower
/What’s the deal with all these towers? We’re deep diving into the origins of the fairy tale tower, the historical reasons why they were keeping people in towers anyway, and laying out all the romance novel tropes beat by beat.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of arophobia/aphobia, animal death, injury, imprisonment, abusive relationships, death, sex, suicidal ideation, war, misogyny, patriarchy, religious persecution, torture, beheading, death by lightning, and animal attacks.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Thistlefoot by GennaRose Nethercott!
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and permanent guest Jasper Cartwright weekly as they recommend games, answer advice questions, and play whatever quizzes Eric comes up with. New episodes every Friday!
Sponsors
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 337, which Julia our handy spreadsheet tells me is about the fairy tale tower. Now I recall talking about this pretty recently.
JULIA: Yes. So in a recent episode, the return of Bird Husband. Bird Husband.
AMANDA: Bird Husband. He's a husband and bird and a bird—
AMANDA AND JULIA: Bird Husband.
JULIA: So we were talking about the story of The Blue Bird. And you mentioned something that really like made the gears in my brain kind of start pumping and going—
AMANDA: Oooh.
JULIA: —which I was very excited. So you asked something along the lines of like, why are there so many towers in these stories? What were these towers being used for before the heroines of the stories were locked in them? What's the deal with them?
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, are you about to me the deal with them?
JULIA: Yes Amanda, because I have as a lot of people can tell from the episodes we've been releasing, been on a bit of a fairy tale kick lately. So I decided I want to explore the origins of the fairy tale tower. And then maybe we could talk a little bit about some of my favorite examples of the tower, some fun little twists of the original tale. But to start us off, Amanda, what are some of the stories that feature the like locked in a tower trope that are some of your favorites or the first that come to mind?
AMANDA: I think Rapunzel is definitely the one that comes closest to mind.
JULIA: Natch.
AMANDA: The image of the hair falling all the way down, and the hair as a necessity and a tool for getting out of the situation that she found herself in. But I don't know it's in like Monty Python's Holy Grail. You know, it's like the uh—
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: —parody of the trope. But I can't think of two too many other fairy tales where a Tower features really prominently. I mean, I guess Sleeping Beauty less of a— less of a tower I suppose, more it's kind of like a locked room situation. And obviously in the Beauty and the Beast movie at least there are some like wings of the house that you're not allowed to go into. A sort of like mad wife in the attic situation.
JULIA: Oh, well I'm so glad you brought up mad wife in the attic.
AMANDA: Ooohh.
JULIA: Because that is kind of a twist on the maid in the tower trope. I'll be at much darker I suppose the— the wife in the attic situation. But yeah, it's— it's very, very interesting. But for people in case someone is not familiar with this trope, the idea is very simple. So in a lot of stories, particularly fairy tales, it is apparently standard practice to imprison some sort of damsel in distress, usually a princess, but of course not always in a tower. When we're talking about towers, it's usually just like the most out-of-the-way place. It's the tallest tower in the biggest castle, on the highest hill and the most dangerous land, etc, etc. That's how the trope usually goes. And this is something that is super familiar to most people. But the question is, where did it all come from? What are its origins? Well, Amanda, to tell you the origins of the fairy tale tower, I'm going to remind you of someone that we also introduced in our return of Bird Husband episode, Marie de France.
AMANDA: Yay, Marie de France, who lives in England.
JULIA: Marie de France. Yes, as you might remember, was a French poet who was living in England during the late 12th century. We don't know a ton about her life, but we do know that she was the author of several works, but most relevant to ours, were The Lais of Marie de France. Now, this was a collection of these 12 narrative poems called Lais, which averaged around a few 100 lines each and they were in general, these kinds of rhyming tales of love and chivalry, usually with some sort of magical or supernatural element to it. Which seems to have a laid the groundwork for what would become known and coined as a fairy tale many years later.
AMANDA: Very nice. I also just have to tell you that there is a sort of headcanon that has stuck with me since the Bird Husband episode.
JULIA: Wonderful.
AMANDA: Where Marie de France lives in England and you know, came with a French accent. Maybe speaks you know, English as needed in her daily life. But like my grandfather from Ireland, her accent only gets stronger the longer she lives outside of her home country. Where when I—when I knew my grandpa he was you know, in his— in his like, 70s into his late 80s. And my dad was like, yeah, this is not what he sounded like when I was a kid.
JULIA: He's much more Irish now—
AMANDA: Much, more Irish-che.
JULIA: —I don't know what happened.
AMANDA: He's got stubborner and stubborner and—and wouldn't— wouldn't Americanize.
JULIA: I love that for you, I love this theory. And I think you'll find that it might be somewhat true, or at least might have like some foundation in truth. So basically, while what they would call a [5:10] so like a British lais, is a general term for these types of work. The Lais of Marie de France are probably like the earliest surviving examples that we can examine. And these lais were written in a dialect of Old French, Amanda.
AMANDA: Oooh.
JULIA: So she was writing in French constantly. So I imagine that what you just said is true that she just became more French the more time she spent in England.
AMANDA: And was it written in Old French in the way that Chaucer was written in Old English sort of like to make it seem even older?
JULIA: I don't think so necessarily. I—at this point, it's the 12th century. So it might have been a dialect of Old French that was considered just more poetic in a way.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. No, that was contemporary to them.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Man, the past is long, lots of things happen back there.
JULIA: There's so much things in the past. Yo.
AMANDA: Sometimes I say prevention on this podcast, and then I say stuff like that, you know?
JULIA: Yeah, of course. So one of these ways was, as we mentioned, in the Bird Husband episode, the story that would become the Blue Bird. But another which is more relevant to our interests in this episode was the poem of Guigemar. So one of the lais of Marie de France. Again, it was written in the 12th century in that old French dialect, and also how we know Marie de France's name because she explicitly states it in the prologue of the poem.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Which is so cool. She's like, hey, my name is Marie, I'm from France. I'm telling you this story because I realized that like when you hear stories if it's not told correctly, you kind of hate the person who's telling the story. So I'm here to tell the story correctly.
AMANDA: Oh, damn. Wow, it's a real Call Me Ishmael situation.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's really, really good. I love Marie de France. I don't know anything about her. She—I don't think she's problematic, but I just like love her whole vibe.
AMANDA: From what I know, huge fan. And yeah, for anyone doesn't know the beginning of Moby Dick is this guy Ishmael being like, call me Ishmael, lots of shit happen. Sometimes you get mad, you want to knock people's hats off, then you gotta go to see, that's what happened to me. Come on, I got stuff to tell you about whales. And I love it. Because you know, the more scholarly you want to get, the more you're like call you Ishmael, like is that your name? You know, how did you survive this harrowing journey? Like, why are you leveling with me in this way? It's really fascinating,
JULIA: Amanda, this is a total aside. But recently for the listeners, I was visiting you in the city for your spouse's Eric birthday.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And I missed my train. So on the way back, I stopped at one of our favorite bars, which I at least haven't been to in an extremely long time.
AMANDA: No, me neither.
JULIA: And the new bartender behind the bar, his name was Ishmael.
AMANDA: Ohhh!
JULIA: Yeah!
AMANDA: If I was there, I would not have been able to help myself from saying a thing. I'm sure he hears constantly.
JULIA: I mean, maybe, who can say? What would you have said? Would you have been like a call m— call you Ishmael? Call you Ishmael.
AMANDA: Probably my eyes would have got really wide and then either you or Eric would have made eye contact with me and be like, I know. And then I would be like, thank God.
JULIA: Incredible. Well, I'm going to tell us the story of Guigemar, because it is as I understand it to be, perhaps the origin of the damsel in distress in the fairy tale tower.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, Julia. And I realized this episode coming out not too long after the new Zelda game. So I know there's some— we're recording this two days before it comes out. So there are some kind of discussion and speculation about what the role of you know, the damsel in distress might be in this game. So who knows? Maybe by now, people will have some interesting observations.
JULIA: Yeah, there you go. Shout to Zelda a true queen. We love Zelda. She is cool as hell.
AMANDA: Cool as hell.
JULIA: Cool as hell. The story is that a long time ago, for— it's always a long time ago in these stories. There was a baron who had a brave and handsome son named Guigemar. Now, as was often the case with royalty and politics at the time, children were basically like bargaining chips. And so the boy was sent to serve another king. So he became a knight that was pledged to that King and he became known for his valor and willingness to fight in the wars in France and all that kind of stuff, you know?
AMANDA: Helpful.
JULIA: Yes. So far away from where he was born, he found his place in this king's court and was much loved by all of its members, of course. It was said that because of his looks and bravery, he could have had any woman he so chose. But as Maria de France puts it, nature had done him such a grievous wrong. Because he had no interest in love whatsoever, which like—
AMANDA: Okay, Marie.
JULIA: —we see you arrow King, we appreciate it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: That's great. as w—as we might learn, you might be a [9:52] king, but that's fine, too.
AMANDA: Oh, tight. Alright. I didn't expect this from Marie.
JULIA: But in this time period, of course, like a lack of interest in anything romantic or sexual made him seem basically to be a lost cause by the court. They're like, oh, you know Guigemar, he's great, he’s good in battles. It’s a shame he won't settle down, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah, I'm sure there were a lot of conversations what—with an older relative who's like, come on, for me, please. Like—
JULIA: Just, please.
AMANDA: —no one likes this. Just do it.
JULIA: Probably. At this time period, it's like, it doesn't matter if you don't love her, just marry her, so you can have a wife.
AMANDA: And right on for saying no.
JULIA: Hell yeah. So after many years away, Guigemar returns to the kingdom that he was born to visit his family and was welcome home after such a long time. You know, very classic like, oh, my son, you finally return. Let us have a celebration to honor your return, right?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: He decides to celebrate that he is going to go on a hunt, which is very classic medieval stuff going on here. So he gets a large party to join him, and while he's out in the woods, they come across a great white stag. Such a prize.
AMANDA: Oohh.
JULIA: No hesitation as he fires his arrow and fatally wounds this deer. So the deer which of course, is in fact magical, because anytime there's a beautiful white, obviously magical deer, of course, there is magic going on. The deer with its dying breath, because of course, it could talk.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: Curses Guigemar, telling him that he will never find a cure for the wound on his thigh until he finds a woman who will not only suffer for him but one he himself will suffer for.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So basically, he has to find true love in order to cure this injury that is happening here.
AMANDA: I shouldn't know in the tower trope would have something to do with the true love trope.
JULIA: Of course.
AMANDA: This really does feel like an origin story.
JULIA: It really does, right? So as this deer dies, Guigemar expresses concern because he like truly believes he will never find someone that inspires such a love in him as this deer is demanding, right?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So rather than returning home and trying to heal his wound, he decides instead that he doesn't want to deal with people, which I find very relatable.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: And so he wanders through the forest until he reaches the sea. There he finds a ship that basically like shouldn't be there, right? It's carved, a pure ebony it's completely deserted. It's very confusing that there's a ship here.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So he decides to investigate this ship and he finds inside the ship, a beautifully constructed bed. And in the pain from his injury decides to rest there, right?
AMANDA: Relatable but also, don't sleep on the ferry bed, buddy.
JULIA: No, probably not a good idea. So he falls asleep. And when he awakes and is able to stand he finds that the ship has magically set sail and is on its way to an unknown location.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's like being a Boxcar kid and falling asleep at the Boxcar. The thing is designed to go other places.
JULIA: It is, it truly is. Even though there's no one controlling it because there's no crew or anything like that. It's just magic.
AMANDA: Oooh, I'm loving this image, though.
JULIA: I know, right? So he's like, well, shit, this sucks, but there's nothing I can really do about it. And also my leg hurts real bad, so this might as well happen, right? And so he just goes back to sleep.
AMANDA: Again, relatable.
JULIA: At this point, Marie kind of cuts away and she tells us how the ship is headed for the capital city of this ancient unnamed realm.
AMANDA: Ohhh.
JULIA: There, Marie tells us the city is ruled by a very old king with a young beautiful wife, who he fears will cheat on him.
AMANDA: Okay, I mean, listen, you're king, you have the power and situation.
JULIA: Mmmm.
AMANDA: You choose to marry a beautiful wife, I—uh—
JULIA: That's on you.
AMANDA: I don't know, that's on you.
JULIA: So this fear has led him to lock her away in an area, basically the suites guarded by an elderly castrated priest. Because naturally, both a priest and castrated can't do anything. And he is located guarding the only entrance to these suites, right? And this whole enclosure that she is kept in is walled, except for one side of—that has a garden that cuts off at the sea.
AMANDA: Nature's wall, a cliff.
JULIA: And this is her only view of the outside world. Is this like, you know beach basically that she cannot cross?
AMANDA: Bummer.
JULIA: It is a bit of a bummer. She—however, is kind of living a life of luxury besides the isolation, right? She's living in these luxurious suites. She is surrounded by these kinds of like beautiful paintings of Venus contemplating love and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: But the queen is lonely because the only companion she has is her husband's niece. And while the two are good friends, you know, that's the only person she interacts with.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: However, one day the queen is sleeping in her garden and is awoken when a ship approaches the shore.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: She calls out to her companion who goes and investigates the ship and finds onboard the sleeping Knight.
AMANDA: A hottie with a thigh wound, baby.
JULIA: Mmm. So at first, the companion thinks that he's dead because he's sleeping so soundly. He's lost a decent amount of blood, he's very pale. And so she reports back to the queen who insists that they're like, well if he's dead, we have to give him a proper burial. So let's go retrieve his body. Sure. Classic.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: The Queen seeing the quote-unquote, “dead body” of Guigemar is like, Damn, he's handsome. Okay, it's a real shame he's dead. Like I feel so bad. But when she grabs his wrist to move him she feels a weak pulse and finds that he's warm rather than cold and dead. And it is in that moment that he wakes up and he's like, oh my god, I'm so glad I like found land and I'm somewhere and not just like dead on this boat. That's pretty—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —pretty solid.
AMANDA: I'm also seeing a lot of parallels to the return of Bird Husband, where you know we have an injured man. And while the woman is being you know, kept away she still has some agency and ability to like help him and figure it out.
JULIA: Exactly. So they kind of share their story, she's like, yeah, my husband locked me up and he's like yeah, I got injured and cursed by a deer.
AMANDA: Saying basically, yup.
JULIA: Yeah. The Queen basically offers to nurse him back to health and Guigemar agrees, and the Queen and her companion help him to her bed and they kind of nurse his wounds and help him to recover, right?
AMANDA: Julia, I've read enough Regency romances to know this is a situation where the proximity and care and one bed means that the chances you may fall in love with each other, very high.
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, it gets so Regency romance novel in like two minutes to just give it a second.
AMANDA: Fuck yeah, dude.
JULIA: I like that you saw it and you're like, I know where this is headed.
AMANDA: This is— it's—it's happening. Listened, locked away isolation, come on.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's great. There's a whole like snowed-in at the cabin trope. This is like hitting all—all of the—the boxes.
JULIA: Hell yeah. So this whole situation is very nice. And Guigemar notices during all of this that he's like, my wound, it no longer hurts.
AMANDA: Ohhh.
JULIA: And also, I think I'm starting to catch feelings for this queen.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: And meanwhile Guigemar is unaware that the Queen is also starting to catch feelings for him. And Amanda, again, this is like classic romance novel stuff, where both of them are like, oh, no, I am so sure I love this person. But also I am so sure they do not love me back.
AMANDA: Classic indeed.
JULIA: So Guigemar is also concerned about the deers' curse. And this idea that the Queen will not suffer for him the same way that he suffers for her. Basically, like, it's all this pining happening, and he's like, oh, I'm pining so hard, my heart aches. But I'm sure she doesn't also feel the same way, so we can't be together.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So he comes to the conclusion as Marie puts it, suffering was inevitable. And so he spends many sleepless nights just like basically pining not knowing that the Queen is also tormented with those same feelings.
AMANDA: This is how you know it's a romance book, where one simple conversation could save everyone a lot of heartache. And in this case physical ache.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, the good news is the Queen's companion, seeing how her lady is suffering so and trying to be a good friend.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Goes to Guigemar and it's like, listen, she's into you.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: I want you two to be together. So I'm going to help, I'm gonna like push her over the edge so you guys can have this conversation.
AMANDA: An incredible best friend, the wing woman.
JULIA: Exactly. So after mass the next day, because of course—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: She's still go to mass even though she's completely isolated from the rest of the world. The companion goes, my lady go see him, tell him how you feel. Come on, do it. And the queen goes, but like neither of them are willing to tell the other that they are in love and it drives me crazy. And I love how Marie de France puts it where she says of Guigemar quote, “he who does not let his affirm any be known, can scarcely expect to receive a cure.”
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: Isn't that fucking beautiful?
AMANDA: She's basically saying, nut up, dude.
JULIA: Nut up, dude. You know, if you don't tell her how you feel, you can expect her to return your feelings.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: Bro.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: So finally, after much hemming and hawing, Guigemar confesses his love for the queen. And the queen is like, okay, well, same, but also like, let's not make any hasty decisions. Let's think about this. Like this is an interesting and kind of weird situation that I've never found myself in before. And Guigemar is like, okay, but like, also, if you love me, waiting isn't gonna change anything about the situation.
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: She's like, damn, you're right, and then they sleep together.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Now this might be the end of things, but things aren't quite resolved yet, right Amanda?
AMANDA: Oh no, no, we can't get to this happy ending when they confess feelings for each other. We gotta have some challenges.
JULIA: There will be some challenges, but before we hit those challenges, let's grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia and welcome to the refill. Let's start off by thanking our patrons who are wonderful and keep this podcast going. People like our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course our legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can join our Patreon and get some excellent rewards like ad-free episodes, tarot card readings, cocktail recipes for each and every episode that we put out including mocktails and so, so much more. Check it out at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I'm going to recommend to you something that I am really enjoying reading right now. I have a feeling that Amanda recommended this to me a while back, but I finally picked it up in physical form from my local library. And that is Thistlefoot by GennaRose Nethercott. It is a wonderful story if you love Baba Yaga much like I do. And you also find puppets both delightful and creepy. Thistlefoot is the book for you. Check it out, that is Thistlefoot by GennaRose Nethercott. So, so good. I also want to encourage everyone listening right now. Hey, tell a friend about the show. I know we say this a lot, that the best way of spreading the news about Spirits and making the show bigger is by telling people you love about this show that you also love. So do me a favor, pause the podcast right now, text your friend who maybe they love Legend of Korra or they love creepy urban legends episodes, and send them our most recent episode, our last episode with Janet Varney. We had so much fun talking to Janet. And I think that it's one of my favorite urban legends episodes of all time. So do us a favor, text your friend who loves creepy things and also the work of Janet Varney, and tell them about the show. I'm also going to tell you about a show here from the Multitude Collective and that is Games and Feelings. Games and Feelings is an advice podcast all about games. You can join question keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests, including permanent guest, Jasper Cartwright, who will answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. They talk about every single type of game, video games of all kinds, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, and so much more. Basically, anything you can think of that is defined as a game, they talk about it on the show. Eric, Jasper, and various Multitude folks are there to recommend games, answer advice questions and play whatever quizzes Eric comes up with. He's constantly making quizzes and it's very impressive. And their new weekly schedule brings back the hit 2020 show What's Your Favorite Pokemon, And Then I Say Something Nice About You. Which is honestly probably one of my favorite podcasts out there. Where Eric interviews people about their favorite Pokemon, and then you guessed it, says something nice about them. If you like what you hear and you want to level up your emotional intelligence stat, subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts. They have new episodes every Friday. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. And here's the thing, I'm coming to you hot and fresh from a therapy session. And let me tell you therapy is good. I know this is not a newsflash, but therapy is genuinely something that makes my life so much easier. Because think about this, how much time do you spend on yourself in a given week, versus how much time do you spend on other people? Now I think it's really important for you to balance the two because you know, when you spend all of your time giving, it can leave you feeling really stretched thin and burned out. And I know that that's something that I talked to my therapist a lot, about how I can balance taking care of me and also cultivating and nurturing the relationships I have with people around me. It's an extremely important skill and something that I feel like I wouldn't do as well if it wasn't for therapy. And therapy can give you the tools you need to find more balance in your life so that you can keep supporting others without leaving yourself behind. And if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find more balanced with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/spirits today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterHELP.com/spirits. We are also sponsored this week by one of our favorites, our OG sponsor, Shaker & Spoon. Shaker & Spoon is a subscription cocktail service that helps you learn how to make handcrafted cocktails right at home. And they are, I'm gonna tell you, wonderful. I love getting a Shaker & Spoon box. They send all these little bottles and tinctures and stuff like that exactly what you need, in order to make four cocktails with three different recipes. Just all you need is whatever bottle of spirit that month is, whether it's gin or sometimes sake, or whiskey or rum, what have you. They make such interesting and unique cocktails. It's like having a craft cocktail bar in your house and you get to make it. I mean, as someone who enjoys making cocktails, it's a wonderful experience. I love giving them as gifts. I love getting them myself. Shaker & Spoon is by far one of my favorite sponsors hear on the podcast. And you can get started and get $20 off your first box by going to shakerandspoon.com/cool. Again, that is $20 off your first box at shakerandspoon.com/cool. And hey, tell them that Spirit sent you because we love those folks. And now let's get back to the episode.
JULIA: So Amanda for this story, I wanted a cocktail that I think was like a little bit bitter, a little bit complex, and then has a blossoming sweetness underneath it. So I found a great cocktail called the Damsel in Distress.
AMANDA: Hey!
JULIA: It is a bit of gin, a bit of amaretto, some lemon juice. And interestingly, a couple of drops of plum bitters.
AMANDA: Hey, that sounds really good.
JULIA: So this is a good excuse to add plum bitters to your bar setup. Number one, and also this kind of cocktail I feel like is the type I would make if I was feeling a bit glum about being trapped in a tower and wanted to pick me up.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude. Also, you can really easily make bitters, you just steep some shit and like vodka bit essentially, and bottle it. So if you are getting into stone fruit season and have some incredible plums at your disposal. I know our local market has had some seriously weird and cool grapefruit recently.
JULIA: Hell yeah.
AMANDA: Totally go for it.
JULIA: Go for it. Now's the time to do it, you know? Try it out.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: For our patrons who get the director's commentary, I will include a how-to guide, how to make your own bitters at home.
AMANDA: I've done it a bunch, it is super easy. It makes it feel like a wizard.
JULIA: I always feel like a wizard when I make cocktails, is that weird?
AMANDA: You're—no, no, of course not. And you always got your— your syrup's and your potions and your you know, like alchemical accessories by which I mean strainers and shakers, it's great.
JULIA: I was gonna say I feel more like an alchemist or like a witch like, you know.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Whenever I make simple syrup I feel like a witch because I'm like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Oooh, and now we add the sugar, and now we add the spices.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Yeah, that's just big. We left off with Guigemar and the Queen finally getting together. And Amanda they spend a year and a half of bliss basically.
AMANDA: What?!
JULIA: They're living happily together in the Queen's isolated suite. Everything is going great.
AMANDA: The king doesn't know this? The priest doesn't hear anything?
JULIA: I guess not. I mean, this is a pretty big suite. it's not—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —this is not the like small tower situation which we'll get to in a little bit.
AMANDA: I do feel like you kind of noticed if like the food you needed doubled though. You know if there was like suddenly a man living, or I guess you know, would—would grow by 50%. If you went from you know, Lady and lady's companion to Lady, lady's companion and like the man washed in on a boat.
JULIA: That's true. Maybe they're just like, oh, my lady, she's more hungry now.
AMANDA: Uh, fair.
JULIA: That's fair. She also has a garden. I don't know what she's growing in the garden.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Potentially. She's—
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: —you know, doing some vegetables and stuff, so maybe that's—
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: —what she's feeding them.
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: Who can say?
AMANDA: Who can say?
JULIA: She's also still the queen. So she could be like, I want more—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —food, don't question it.
AMANDA: Fair, fair, fair.
JULIA: They are living this happy, isolated life. But one day the Queen has a dream that they're going to be discovered, right?
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: So they decide that since they will be discovered and separated, which like is kind of like a bold thing. He's like, oh, yeah, you had that dream. That's it for us, I guess. We better prepare for that inevitability. They decide that they are going to stay true to each other unless another potential lover can defeat tests that they chose for each other.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: There's a lot of rhyming in that and I appreciate it but—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —here we go. So the Queen first ties Guigemar's shirt into a complicated knot. While Guigemar creates a chastity belt for the Queen's loins. Very classic medieval stuff.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So they soon as she predicted are discovered, and the old king arrives to kill Guigemar. However, Guigemar is able to basically convince the king like, here's my story. I didn't mean to come here. There was a ship and the king is like, okay, he's like, it is probably not true. But you know what, I don't really want to kill you, why don't you just leave now?
AMANDA: It's surprising, okay.
JULIA: Mmm. And he's like, you can leave so long as you never return, and you never do anything with my wife again. So Guigemar parts from his beloved returns to his homeland where he is greeted warmly by the court that he had disappeared from.
AMANDA: Also surprising.
JULIA: Yeah. I mean, it's also only been a year and a half.
AMANDA: Oh yeah, that's true.
JULIA: I would assume someone is dead if they disappeared for a year and a half. People you know, travel was different back then.
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: Sometimes you would just leave and then you wouldn't be there for a year and a half.
AMANDA: Yeah. And as you did point out and—and the story was sure to set, like he was you know, good at stuff and useful, even if he didn't love to marry.
JULIA: Exactly. So Guigemar welcome back to that court. However, he is left extremely depressed because he has left his love behind and he once again refuses to replace her. You know, he stays true to his vows. And so rumors start to spread all across the land about this knot that his lover has left him. And while many women approached Guigemar and are like hey, let me try to untie that, none are successful.
AMANDA: Wow, good knot.
JULIA: Very classic. Good knot. I—I want to learn knotting from This lady.
AMANDA: Maybe not for the same purposes but like, you know, knowing how to tie knots comes in handy.
JULIA: Very nautical. I appreciate that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So at this point, Marie de France shifts from Guigemar to the queen who has now you guessed it, been imprisoned in a tower by her husband, rather than her glamorous suites.
AMANDA: Oh, wow. I thought that the suites were sort of the closest we were gonna get to a tower, but no, no, this has been escalated.
JULIA: No. Now she's in a marble tower isolated from the world. And she suffers like that for over two years, Amanda. It's a long time in fairy tales for sure.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: She decides that she wants to suffer no longer. She unfortunately contemplate suicide, and when she is considering that she's like, okay, let me try the door to my tower one last time. And she finds that her prison has been unlocked.
AMANDA: Oh, really?
JULIA: And that there are no guards.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Now she much like you is confused and somewhat delighted. So she continues down the tower steps, doesn't run into anyone. Continues down to the shore, doesn't run into anyone, and finds at the shore the same ship that brought Guigemar to her.
AMANDA: Hey!
JULIA: It is waiting for her there and she thinks for a moment she's like, if this ship is still here, maybe that means Guigemar has died. I don't know what to do now.
AMANDA: Right, right.
JULIA: What should I do? But she is on the ship and the ship magically begins to set sail again.
AMANDA: This is so cool. I love this shit.
JULIA: I know, isn't this great? I want one of these. This is almost as good as the very cool ship that folds up in your pocket from Norse Mythology episodes.
AMANDA: Pocket ship. Mmm. Mmm.
JULIA: Yeah. So the ship set sail towards Guigemar's kingdom and eventually takes her to a neighboring kingdom that is ruled by a Lord named Lord Meriaduc. So Lord Meriaduc sees the queen as she comes upon his shores, immediately falls in love with her. Attempts to persuade her to marry him. She of course, as we have seen, denies him because she's still in love with Guigemar and she's bound by the vows that they took, that they would only be with someone who could undo the not slash chastity belt, right?
AMANDA: Mmm.
JULIA: Now, Lord Meriaduc knew about Guigemar through reputation and rumor and heard all about this whole knot situation. And came to the conclusion that this must be the one who the Queen was promised to right?
AMANDA: Mmm.
JULIA: So he even attempts to remove the chastity belt, he's unable to. And so he decides, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm already planning on throwing a jousting tournament to gain more allies because I want to go to war against my enemies, right? Very classic medieval stuff happening here, very Game of Thrones.
AMANDA: Indeed.
JULIA: So he invites Guigemar to partake in this jousting tournament. Mainly because of his reputation of being a fierce warrior, but also because he wants to confirm his suspicions about the connection between the queen and the knight.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: So at the feast before the tournament, the two are in the same hall together and the Queen grows faint just hearing Guigemar's name across the hall, right?
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: So the Lord insists on her attempting to undo the knot in Guigemar's shirt. And at first, she's like too weak to do. So she's very like, oh, I'm so weak. My love is near and I can't possibly imagine what this moment would be like, you know, that kind of thing because ladies.
AMANDA: Mmm.
JULIA: But she attempts to do it again, and she's able to unravel it easily. And Guigemar is like, oh my beloved it is truly you. And she notes that she is still wearing the belt that he gave her and tells the Lord that he will serve in his wars if he will allow him to take the queen as his wife, right?
AMANDA: Mmm.
JULIA: Like I'll pledge to you.
AMANDA: I'm great at wars. Great at warring, everybody says it.
JULIA: But the Lord is like, ah hahaha no and [35:04] like, I don't need your services actually, I'm actually good. I'm gonna keep her for myself. You can go fuck yourself, right?
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Because obviously, he's the bad guy in this situation. So pissed and full of justifiable rage, Guigemar rides to the kingdom of the Lord's enemy, pledges himself to that Lord, and goes to war. And after like 7 years of combat and starving out all these villagers and being able to finally take the siege of the castle, he kills the Lord, reclaims his love. They live happily ever after, the end.
AMANDA: Wow, This is a long arc [35:43]
JULIA: It is. It's kind of beautiful and kind of fun and like, has so many of the tropes that we love and expect out of fairy tales now. And that's why you can see that it's such a groundwork. It's such a prototype for what the later fairy tales would become.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, trials, like all kinds of stuff.
JULIA: And now that we finished the story of Guigemar, we can talk a little bit about the other versions of the story that came later, right? So surprising no one there is a Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index type called the Maiden in the Tower which—
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: I mean, makes a lot of sense. The tower is a great device in storytelling, it adds suspense, it centers the story on a single location, at least for the time being that person is trapped in that tower. And I really think that like, it became such a trope, because it's just good storytelling. And that kind of harkens back to the prelude that I mentioned earlier that Marie de France talks about in Guigemar, where she's like, hey, listen, if the person doesn't tell the story right, you're not gonna like the story or the storyteller. So the idea that the tower as a trope in these stories is just good storytelling. I kind of love that.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: We would be remiss I feel like if we didn't talk about the story of Rapunzel in this section as well, as you mentioned earlier. Just a very quick bit-by-bit of the story of Rapunzel and not getting into any of the like super gritty details. The story starts with a man who sneaks into the garden of a witch to get some greens specifically Rapunzel, which is a type of like salad green at the time. Because his pregnant wife is having a craving.
AMANDA: Classic. Again people been people this whole time and it's pretty amazing.
JULIA: People been people this whole time. So the witch catches him trespassing and demands the child his wife is pregnant with in exchange for his freedom and letting him go. Man agrees for some reason, and when the baby is born, she is a beautiful little baby girl and the witch takes her and names her Rapunzel, which is kind of a real harsh jive, or real harsh jab at the guy from earlier on the story.
AMANDA: Yeah, just imagine it's like Watercress.
JULIA: Yeah. I mean, great. I think if it is Arugula, I think more babies should be named Arugula.
AMANDA: I think that's really good. Also, I've also heard Watercress is uh—makes a—makes a very good soup apparently and—
JULIA: Apparently.
AMANDA: —and is very nutrient [38:15], so.
JULIA: I'm into it. So eventually this Rapunzel grows into a beautiful young woman with long blonde hair. And when she is 12, the witch locks her in a tower with no exit other than a single window. And in order to visit the witch would call up to her Rapunze,l Rapunzel, let down your gold hair.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And then would climb said hair into the tower. One day of course a prince hears her singing and is enchanted by her naturally. And so calls on her, climbs the hair, the two fall in love and plan to get married and escape. Again, so very classic, all the bits are there. However, they are caught by the witch who cuts off Rapunzel's hair and cast her out into the wilderness. And then when the prince comes to visit once again, the witch allows him to climb the cut-off hair and then pushes him from the tower where he falls into some Briar and is blinded.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: Both wander the wilderness trying to find each other. Rapunzel gives birth to twins in the meantime, and eventually, they managed to stumble upon each other and Rapunzel's tears remove the princes' blindness. And then they returned to his kingdom live happily ever after, the end.
AMANDA: The end baby. God, I want a mic drop.
JULIA: Now the Rapunzel story kind of raises for me at least the question of why towers? What are these towers representing? What are the themes around towers, right? The themes in these stories in particular are appropriate for the fairy tales that are happening because like by putting these princesses high above the ground, they are of course being isolated and cut off from their surroundings. But also to kind of like puts them on a pedestal, or puts them in another realm entirely. Like they're no longer part of the world of mere mortals, they are something more. They are out of this world for lack of a better phrase, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Because they are kind of in this different world. And we often talk about like in fairy tales winding up in the land of the Fae, and how that is oftentimes a bad thing. But this is, to some extent, the same feeling in terms of the fairy tale. Like, it is very much oh, because this person has become isolated from the world, they are innocent, they are pure, they are something more than human. And I really like that as the kind of like, well, if we're going to put you away, that just basically proves your goodness, your morality, because you have not been corrupted by the evils of the world.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's very patriarchal.
JULIA: Oh, yeah, super patriarchal. And a lot of times, it is the fathers that are putting these daughters in the towers, or the husbands that are putting the wives in the towers. Which I'm so glad you brought up the kind of wife in the attic trope of the Victorian era because I think that is kind of a darker and more interesting twist on the misogyny for lack of a better phrase of the damsel in distress tower trope.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: I'm so glad you brought that up. Thank you. All of this besides, we're talking about tropes and that sort of thing when it comes to the towers. So there are historical reasons that someone would use a tower in the stories, right? I loved this. [41:25] like a little bit of a historical rabbit hole here. So—
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: —oftentimes, during wartime prisoners were, in fact, kept in towers, right?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Which I mean, if you think about it makes a lot of sense. It's the most secure room in a castle if someone wants to escape. They have to make their way past all of the lower rooms. And there's usually a very limited way to enter or exit a tower, right? And this was also before the time of underground dungeons. Because dungeons were It might surprise you to learn, expensive to dig.
AMANDA: I mean, digging sucks.
JULIA: Digging sucks.
AMANDA: I've been watching a lot of gardening videos recently, Julia. And in my case, living in an apartment. So it would be like containers or bags. But hey, every time any of them are like, yep, gotta just dig a big trench. I'm digging.
JULIA: Yeah, sucks.
AMANDA: That makes sense.
JULIA: I've been doing a lot of digging in my backyard gardens. and let me tell you, it sucks. Not a fun time at all. Dungeons because they were so expensive to dig and required a certain level of architectural design, were rarely added to castles until after the 13th century. You want to hear a fun etymology fact, Amanda?
AMANDA: Always Julia, you know me.
JULIA: So the word dungeon comes from the French word, donjon, which actually at the time meant the highest tower in the castle.
AMANDA: What?!
JULIA: So when we refer to dungeons, we really shouldn't be thinking about like the dank underground dungeon, we should be thinking about the highest tower in the castle.
AMANDA: My mind is utterly blown, Julia. I would have never in a million years have guessed that.
JULIA: Yay. I did it!
AMANDA: Damn, you really did do it.
JULIA: I did do that, isn't that amazing?
AMANDA: Wow, it really is.
JULIA: I love history. God.
AMANDA: Language, so cool.
JULIA: Speaking of history, and historical versions of the story, kind of sort of. I want to talk about St. Barbara.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Now, there are of course, as is often the case of saints during this time period. Oh, that she actually existed.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Or that the stories told about her are true, but assuming that the biographies about her from the 7th century, about her 3rd-century life are accurate. She is famously associated with towers. So the story goes that she was the daughter of a rich pagan man who was being overprotective of his daughter, as is often the case. And decided to lock her in a tower to protect her from the outside world.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So she, again is often the case in these saints' origin stories, as I would like to say, converted to Christianity in secret. And when her father attempted to marry her, she refused every offer because again, none of these men were Christians, right? Eventually, she was outed to her father for being a Christian, because he like decided to build her a bathhouse and she was like, actually, what if instead of just the two windows that are in here, we put a third one for the Trinity? And they were like, you must be a Christian. So unfortunately for her, she was tortured to basically convince her to give up her faith, which she did not. Though every morning, she found that her wounds from the previous day would be healed, which is one of the miracles that gave her—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —uh, sainthood. And eventually, she was condemned to death with her father doling out the sentence via beheading. Again, no saint story ends happily because that's just what being a saint is. Also kind of true to Christian saint form. The father was struck by lightning after killing his daughter, which is a chef's kiss.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So because of her death and the fact that she stayed true to her faith, she was made a saint. And she is considered the Patron of I'd love listing off patronages of saints, Architects, Artillery, Men, Firefighters, Mathematicians, Miners, Tunnelers, Prisoners, and oddly enough Chemical Engineers.
AMANDA: Okay. Alright.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I mean, it's not obvious to me, but go for it.
JULIA: I feel like everything besides Chemical Engineers is like, okay, yeah, you know, there's a lightning fire element to Firefighters, that makes sense. She was in a tower and also there was a bathhouse that was being built, sure Architects, Artillery Men, Miners, Tunnelers. She was a prisoner, so prisoners that makes a lot of sense.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Chemical Engineers.
AMANDA: You know, the list of groups of people that saints are for is kind of like the most interesting dating profile of all time to me.
JULIA: Oh, for sure.
AMANDA: Like really you read them off and you're like, damn you like cook, do judo, and also love kayaking? Like, wow, what a grab bag. And that's how it feels sometimes.
JULIA: A 100%? yes. But also I figured out why chemical engineers, right?
AMANDA: Tell me.
JULIA: So the name of the Barbiturate family of pharmaceutical drugs is believed to have derived from the suggestion of an artilleryman, commemorating the feast of St. Barbara in 1864.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: And so a Chemist encountered that man, he suggested it. And so he was like, I'm going to make that. And now St. Barbara is the patron of Chemical Engineers.
AMANDA: You know, Julia, I've heard wilder things, it's pretty good.
JULIA: I like it. It's a good connection.
AMANDA: Makes sense.
JULIA: So leaving St. Barbara aside, there are, of course, so many other examples of fairy tales that feature this girl in the tower trope. I'm gonna name off a few and give some— some brief summaries to them. So there is the Danish story, the Tinderbox, where a damsel in distress is rescued by a handsome hero, very classic, very straight-to-the-point kind of story. There is the German story of Maid Maleen, where the maiden is trapped in a tower by her father when she rejects the marriage that he has arranged for her because she loves another. But in this story, unlike some of the other stories, she is able to escape, and after 7 years of searching, she's able to find her true love.
AMANDA: Oh, good for you.
JULIA: In an impossible enchantment, a princess named Brasilia is imprisoned in a tower in the middle of the sea, which I like the aesthetic of that one particularly.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: And the Hungarian The Grateful beasts. A princess is locked in a tower when she complains that her father has set a series of impossible tasks for her.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: However, this ends up being in her favor, because the last task is summoning all of the wolves in the kingdom, who end up hungrily devouring the hero in that story.
AMANDA: You know, Julia, between the tower in the middle of the sea and summoning all the wolves in the kingdom to help you, this feels very up your alley.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. And then there's the final one, which is another one of my personal favorites. It's a French story called The White Cat, where a princess is taken away from her family by a bunch of fairy godmothers and is raised in a tower. But when she grows older, she's offered a marriage to the fairy king but rejects his advances. So the fairies banished her from the tower and return her to her own kingdom, but also changed her and everyone else in her kingdom into cats.
AMANDA: Oh, man.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Till the end, I was like, that's not so bad. I mean, being raised by fairy godmothers. Listen your—
JULIA: Kind of nice.
AMANDA: —I'm sure your original family is really sad about it, but like could be worse, you know?
JULIA: Little changeling vibes? Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: But that everyone's a cat now.
AMANDA: Here I'm like, oh, yeah, it's just a cat husband instead of a bird husband. Easy, typical. Why are we even ending with this note, you always bring it.
JULIA: So there's also quite a few mythological stories that feature towers like this. So there is a Lithuanian myth about how the sun goddess Saule was trapped in a tower by another jealous God, and she manages to free herself when she befriends the constellations, who managed to persuade a magical blacksmith to create a hammer that is capable of knocking the tower down, freeing her.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: I like that one. There's the story of Brunhilde or Brunhilde, which is a very popular Germanic story. There's quite a few versions of this tale. But my favorite is that Brunhilde is one of the Valkyries, and she refuses to marry any man unless he is fearless. So in order to test their bravery, she places herself on a tall mountain, sometimes a tower, which is surrounded by a wall of fire guarded by a dragon, and there she sleeps in her armor until the bravest man can come and rescue her. And in the story, a hero named Sigurd or Sigfried in later stories, arrives and awakes her both proving his bravery and marrying her.
AMANDA: There you go. So my Sleeping Beauty thought was not super far off.
JULIA: No, you're right on the money honestly. And then, of course, people who remember the story of Perseus, know that he was born when because of a prophecy King, Acrisius locked his daughter in a tower of brass because he was told that her son would kill him. However, as we can expect to Zeus, is still able to visit her because he has shapeshifting powers and then 9 months later, Perseus is born.
AMANDA: I do want to point out just claim it to my Irish grandfather that my German grandmother on my other side calls like a formidable woman, a Brunhilde. That's just like a thing she refers to, which I know is like—
JULIA: Damn right.
AMANDA: —a broadly in culture. But that uh, knowing the origin of that story makes me even happier. Like yeah, I'll sleep in my armor, ready to go at all times.
JULIA: Ready to go. Don't have to get ready if you stay ready.
AMANDA: Exactly right.
JULIA: And Brunhilde's on the money at that.
AMANDA: Exactly. Brunhilde's are always ready.
JULIA: So, Amanda, that is the origin of the fairy tale maid in the tower. What do you think?
AMANDA: I think there was a ton more here than I even expected and Julia, I'm so flattered that you know offhanded comment of mine led you to research such a fascinating story. So thank you as always.
JULIA: Of course, it is my pleasure. And conspirators if there's a particular favorite version of the story that you like whether it is in modern literature, movies, TV, or classic myths and fairy tales, please let us know I'd love to hear which one is your personal favorite.
AMANDA: And just on a personal note, tag me in any screenshots you take from Tears of the Kingdom of just any like adorable plant friends, crocker rocks, horsies that you might pet or be able to ride incredibly exciting and up my alley.
JULIA: All of my horses in Breath of the Wild were named after gemstones. If you want to just like know a fun fact about me.
AMANDA: It’s adorable. I had Eric maybe his after apples and oranges.
JULIA: Oh, that's so cute.
AMANDA: Yeah. I was like Eric bring out blood orange, I like him today.
JULIA: I like that one.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And listeners next time you're trapped in a tower and are listening to some podcasts, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!