Episode 298: Examining Urban Legends and the Satanic Panic (with Sarah Marshall)
/From the Satanic Panic to the urban legends of our youth, we talk to podcaster Sarah Marshall of You’re Wrong About to get her takes on creepiest and coolest ways urban legends have changed the world.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of QAnon, Satanic Panic, pedophilia, sexual abuse, child abuse, animal death, bugs, racism, gore, poisoning, anti-semitism, grooming, transphobia, and homophobia.
Guest
Sarah Marshall is a writer, podcaster, and media critic focused on setting straight our collective memory—or at least getting to the bottom of why we believe and in turn define ourselves by popular narrative and myth. She is the co-host of the popular modern history podcast You’re Wrong About, which has been highlighted in the New Yorker, the Guardian and Time Magazine. Her writing has appeared in the Believer, Buzzfeed and the true crime collection Unspeakable Acts. She loves Portland, Oregon, Philly and Las Vegas in that order, and it has been rumored that she is writing a book about the Satanic Panic.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends The Bodyguard by Katherine Center.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 298. With the fabulous, the spooky, the podcaster extraordinaire, Sarah Marshall. Sarah, welcome to the show.
SARAH M: Thank you so much. I am spooky. That's true. Not everyone notices that but it is definitely true.
JULIA: Yeah, our listeners are creepy and cool. So you are in good company here.
SARAH M: Good.
JULIA: So Sarah, can you like just for people who maybe have not heard of you who are listening to the show, Can you tell us a little bit about like who you are and what you do?
SARAH M: Yeah. So I host a podcast called you're wrong about that I started in Spring, we started recording it in March, we started releasing it in May of 2018. So it is a Taurus. And I've been doing the show solo for the past six months, and also co-host a podcast called You Are Good with my friend Alex Steed, which is a feelings podcast about movies. And I would say that both in their own way are about modern mythology that we often don't think of a section. Specifically, we're wrong about, you know, the first episode we ever did was on the Satanic Panic. And one of the themes as the show grew up has been moral panics, which we're certainly living in an age of and essentially, you know, my read of a lot of them is that you'll hear an absolutely absurd conspiracy theory, you know, often these days aligned with Qanon in some way. And you may be someone to whom it is obviously completely untrue and absurd, which is great. I'm proud of you for feeling that way. And, but then I think what's also going on is, hopefully, we can look at these obvious fictions and try and figure out what are people expressing about what they're actually afraid of, and how can we somehow use that information?
JULIA: Yeah, that's awesome. I think then my first question for you is, what about those topics first interested you? Like you could talk about the Satanic Panic because I know in college, that was something that really interested me. But what was it that you were like, "Oh, this is a trend that we should be talking about."
SARAH M: Yeah, I mean, with the Satanic Panic, I was first drawn to it. I think I first knew it by name, probably, initially, as something that just affected sales of heavy metal music. I remember watching The Decline of Western Civilization Part II: The Metal Years, which was a wonderful kind of tongue-in-cheek documentary about the metal scene in LA in the 80s. And there's, you know, youth counselors warning about how like, the metal horns are really like devil horns. So I knew that there was a lot of that affecting kids ability to get music in the 80s. And it wasn't until I saw the Paradise Lost a documentary about the West Memphis Three when I was in grad school around 2013. I think that I understood that, you know, to me, the Satanic Panic is many things, but it's maybe most tragic is phenomenon and therapy and in the law, and where we had people being convicted of horrible crimes that there was no physical evidence of or physical evidence of that was later debunked as junk science. And it astounded me that, you know, the legal system, which I had grown up, by default, respecting because I had a very privileged and sheltered life. And I was able to believe that it basically function because it's nice to believe that the structures of governance in your society basically are working.
AMANDA: That's the foundational myth of America, right?
SARAH M: Right.
AMANDA: Without kings, we can do it for us and who's the us, eh, don't ask.
SARAH M: And now in retrospect, I feel like learning about the Satanic Panic was essentially a preamble to being in this world now, where I think we all are very aware that like, our country is maybe more vulnerable than we would have once imagined to just endless brazen, lying and mythmaking, I guess. And that was something that was much less obvious to me 10 years ago, and now it's like, well, look around us.
JULIA: Yeah, for sure. Would you mind just for our listeners who either like didn't live through the Satanic Panic or like, don't know exactly what that is? Whether they're like, not from the US or they just haven't been educated in that? Could you give them a little primer as to what it was?
SARAH M: Yeah. So the Satanic Panic was a phenomenon that we started seeing in the United States in the early 80s. And essentially, it was, it came out of something extremely positive, unnecessary, which was the realization that gripped America and the 1970s, that child sexual abuse wasn't this extremely rare thing that had only happened to you. It was something that happened to a lot of people and something that families often handled by never talking about it again, or by treating it as something not particularly harmful. So we had this awakening that happened partly through the women's lib movement of people coming out of the shadows and sharing the stories of what had happened to them. And out of that, understanding that there was an endemic problem that had been kept secret until now I think that helps create for people the idea that if this had been a secret, then what else could be a secret and this is also a period when prominent feminists are coupling ideologically with people on the right in order to do things like try to outlaw pornography. So out of this moment, we get a book published in 1980, called Michelle Remembers, which is co-written by a woman and her therapist who later got married about how he had apparently been able to regress her in order to produce childhood memories of being abused by the Satanists who her mother had sold her to. And this was a book that wasn't fact-checked. The Foreword essentially says, like, we know, this is like really wild and that the Virgin Mary appears at the end and gets rid of all Michelle's scars. And that's why we can't see physical evidence of the Satanists sowing a tail and horns on her like she said, and stuff like that. But Michelle remembers, and Michelle believes so who are we to say okay, bye. And so I think it was a book published with the expectation that it would make money and it did, and it was also used as training material for police officers and social workers in the United States. And it was people who had been trained using this book that first identified what was reported on in the press as satanic abuse at a daycare center in Southern California, the McMartin Preschool and once that story, appeared in the media and went to national media with at the time unsubstantiated and never to be substantiated claims of children being forced to kick a pony to death, I believe in their nursery school, teachers flying, and things like that things that you get by not knowing how to question a very small child and then questioning them coercively. After that, we started seeing it all around the country. This became in a way a meme. And I think one of the interesting things about memes is that they've always existed there, how culture reproduces itself, other people can articulate this much better than me. But basically, you know, this was also a time when women were having babies and then returning to the workforce in droves and a lot of people didn't like that. And so one of the ways to effectively terrorize women out of working is to say like, every time a woman works, a child is abused by Satanists. So it really makes you think.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: And so we had, you know, a decade of specifically daycare cases because the Center for the anxiety was the idea of leaving your children with qualified strangers, as opposed to your child being taken care of by family members who at this point, we know that if a child is, is sexually abused, and it's probably someone who is in their family, or who they know and trust someone who's in the community, and so it was a situation where there was a lot of cynicism, and I think a lot of genuine fear, and a lot of parents who wanted to do a good job, and not have their children suffer the same trauma that they had or that, you know, the world hadn't cared about them suffering. And that was also adopted by the religious right, and by the conservative movement, and we know that nothing good can come from that. And then, you know, there's the effect that it had on pop music. There's also the kinds of therapeutic techniques that took off. There's the effect that this had on adults seeking therapy. But yeah, I think for a long time, I used to say that the Satanic Panic didn't really end it just sort of went into hibernation. And now I say that it wasn't hibernation. It was just taking a nice nap. And now it's back.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, for sure. My like, I guess, personal experience with the Satanic Panic, which is not really personal experience. But my like mentor in college was actually a religious studies professor, and she had been recruited by the US Government to act as a consultant for when they thought there was like, satanic animal, ritualistic sacrifice.
SARAH M: Right.
JULIA: And she would just be brought in and she would be like, again, guys, that's not really a thing. You guys keep calling me. It's not a thing.
SARAH M: But did they like pay her well and put her in a nice hotel, I hope?
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Yeah. She, she lived good. Yeah.
SARAH M: She's like after another continental breakfast, I must tell you that this appears to be the action of maggots. Once again, it's always maggots.
JULIA: Once again, it's not Satanism. Just letting you guys know.
SARAH M: I'm sure you've covered this before. But I do love the fact that in the 70s, we like pre-Satanic Panic. Although these things connect somewhere in the back is like, we had this panic about UFOs, abducting cattle, and mutilating cattle. This was a whole thing. And the story behind it is fascinating, but the phrase you always see is surgical precision. And it turns out that maggots can debride flesh with surgical precision, so that's a fun fact to have in your pocket.
AMANDA: That's why they're a surgical instrument-
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: -sometimes and a legitimate medical thing. Yeah.
JULIA: The clue is in the description!
SARAH M: All these maggots that are like yes, I am a tiny surgeon and you've underested me again.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: I've been doing this for millennia, millennia!
AMANDA: Yeah, now I'm just picturing people discovering, like fossilized ant colonies or something or beehives and being like, with architectural accuracy. You know, some, some unknown force has made hallways and rooms for these creatures.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like, yeah, ants and bees.
JULIA: Yeah. I mean, it's like that incredibly racist claim, like, oh, well, you know, ancient peoples couldn't have possibly built these structures the way that they are. And we're like, guys, come on, come on. It's not aliens. We know. It's not aliens.
AMANDA: It was ramps and pulleys.
JULIA: We knew what math was. We just ugh, god.
AMANDA: Yeah. Sarah, you're often in a position to introduce the concept of the Satanic Panic or sort of be its mouthpiece or it's like flight attendant being like-
SARAH M: Aww!
AMANDA: This is, this is what it isn't was. This might be a bit meta, but like, how do people react to that, for people who lived through it? Like, I don't know, what are some of the reactions that you get? Like, is this something you've expected happening to you and your career sort of how was like the meta experience of becoming like Satanic Panic person, you know, who can describe this and give it words? What's it been like?
SARAH M: I feel very humbled by it because it just goes to show that like, you can just care about something a lot and talk about it a lot on the internet and that will give you qualifications. And like, you know, yes, I have degrees, and I studied kind of how to be a student of history and blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, I think I just have to be very humble about the fact that I'm just a person who's thought about this more than a lot of other people. But that's really what I have going for me, you know, and people are going to have perspective that allows them to understand this in ways that I never will. And I think, yeah, what I can best offer is kind of where to start thinking about it. And it's also been really great to just to come in touch with people whose lives were affected by the Satanic Panic over the years, and who were like I just realized, ironically, that this also wasn't a thing that just happened in my life. This was happening across the country and across the world in many respects. And I was part of a bigger phenomenon. And yeah, I just, I feel really happy and lucky about being able to have this job. And also, I think there's always going to be irony in the fact that like, one of the dangers of discourse online today is that people can just like appoint themselves experts and say, a bunch of stuff, you know, so like, I have to remember to not, not do that. Exactly, while also kind of doing that. It's weird.
JULIA: I know that feeling. So we're talking about like moral panic. And we're talking about like, kind of the universality of that. And one of the things that we often talk about on this show is we talk about the like, universal feelings that some urban legends have. Like everyone has like the one bridge that if you park under it, something moves your car or leaves a mark on your car. There's always like some sort of haunted train is a very popular one. There's the Phantom hitchhiker you can find all across the United States and in other parts of the world. So I'm curious, what were the urban legends that you grew up with?
SARAH M: Oooh. I feel like I grew up with urban legends and a relatively meta way because I was obsessed with Snopes and also The Straight Snope starting in probably ninth grade. So, unfortunately, I heard a lot of these first like, as they were being debunked, but I did hear one this is really gross. Like if you don't like bugs or cockroaches, just like skip ahead. But this scared the shit out of me when I was probably like, 10. This girl I knew who was my friend's older sister, which is probably where kids tend to hear a lot of these things.
AMANDA: Yes.
SARAH M: Told a story about someone who was licking envelopes, right? And she got a paper cut on her tongue and there was a cockroach egg on the envelope adhesive. And so an entire cockroach grew to maturity inside of her tongue. And I think that's still the grossest thing I've ever heard. It's really bad. Yeah.
JULIA: I feel like I've definitely heard that one before. I haven't heard the like I liked that this sister brought it to the next level because I've heard of the cockroach eggs on the envelopes but I'd never heard of the paper cut and then it growing to full size and that is beautiful and terrifying.
SARAH M: It's so bad. It's not as bad as the famous like the Night Gallery earwig thing because like you're gonna live and everything but at what cost?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: At what cost? For the rest of your life. Your tongues get a taste like cockroach.
SARAH M: Yeah. And my family, we lived in an area where there were a lot of roaches. And it was funny because I wasn't afraid of bugs as a kid but my mom had such an abject A Tour of cockroaches that I started feeling that way as well and I think I'm I love that segment and Creep Show. Have you guys seen that movie? But yeah we're at the first one with EG Marshall who gets it's a cockroach story you guys and I think that one is like retroactive therapy for me against that story.
JULIA: I love that.
AMANDA: In Julia and my's childhood library we had a bunch of scary story anthologies one of which involves like a woman I think with a beehive hairdo right with like bees that came out of it. And I was always fascinated and loved bees a lot. So I was like that sounds great. I'd love to have a call me bees ready to like do my bidding and defend me from bullies like love that.
AMANDA: Yeah!
JULIA: That was one of the scary stories to tell in the dark books, I think. And I remember the one where she has like some sort of like, zit or-
AMANDA: A mole? Yeah.
JULIA: -something growing out a face and it ends up being like a spider sack egg.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And they all like, crawl out of her and the art is horrifying. I'm sure you can find it online. But it's truly, truly awful.
SARAH M: I think that's like, this is one of the great scary stories because like, I know the cockroach story isn't real, but like what is being a human but just everyday waking up and trying to avoid bugs living inside you?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. And like you learn at a young age those like, quote-unquote, facts. I don't know how true they are. It's like you swallow seven spiders every year in your sleep. And I'm just like, what happens to that spider? Is it like the watermelon seeds that can grow into a full watermelon inside your stomach? That spider is laying eggs inside my stomach now? I don't know, I'm eight.
AMANDA: Right? Yeah.
SARAH M: You're just like, at what point will I become more spiders than person? It could happen.
JULIA: It could, it could.
AMANDA: I think that's one of the like, in my adulthood, I now kind of view those as partly about like, I don't know, the decentering of the self? Like, seeing us as a vehicle for another creature or colony that like we are the log on which the mushrooms grow, you know?
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like, we are just the vessel for these other things happening. And maybe, you know, as my own death becomes closer and closer and more and more imminent and real. That's the thing that in turn kind of freaks me out and also makes me feel a part of like the great sort of biological, I don't know, like, interconnected system. As a kid. I was like, ooh, spiders gross. But why is that a thing that sticks around? It's so interesting to me.
JULIA: Yeah, I think it's interesting. And I kind of want to pull it back to your story, Sarah, because a lot of times urban legends and stuff they're playing on something that is concerning to society in that moment, right? And so I imagine probably when that story was happening, this idea of like, things in our everyday life, being somehow corrupted or interfered with or something like that. So like, licking an envelope becomes dangerous, because oh, it's laced with cyanide, or there's bugs growing on it or something like that. And media during the 70s and 80s and 90s very much played into those fears. And I feel like a lot of urban legends from those times twist those stories around into something that is a game of telephone, basically.
SARAH M: That also makes me wonder because if I heard this when I was 10, or 11, that had to have been relatively close to when that Seinfeld episode came out where Susan dies because George bought the cheap envelopes.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH M: It's so it's interesting, yeah, it does feel very late 90s to have these stories where essentially the envelope is the problem. And yeah, that like reasonable fear about mass-produced consumer goods. I mean, that's I think that's also why, like, obviously, the razor blade in the Apple story is the bane of my existence. And we did an episode years ago debunking that, and people keep asking for an episode about it, even though we already did one. So clearly, there's a need, but I totally get how like, I mean, the graphic for American history actually depicts this. So it's a great image because like, the razor blade in the Apple just like logic is in your brain forever. Like you just it affects every apple.
JULIA: Yeah, to now a fear that every time you see an apple and you bite into it, there is that potential for the razor blade in there.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah. And I wonder what other aspects of life you know, we were realizing at that time were filled with horrors, things like, you know, the ozone, you know, nonstick coating on materials like pollution, it was like, just constant revelations of, you know, oh, this thing that we thought was regular was fucked up. Oh, this thing I bought for my kids is actually dangerous. Oh, this, you know, this activity that I did as a child, my children, you know, might get kidnapped, get a candy in a stranger, you know, put something in it. Maybe that's one of the areas where like so many parts of humanity, you know, the things we can't really fix fester until we find small things that we can control. And so it becomes like, you know, cut every Apple or only give out packaged, you know, candy on Halloween, and I don't have to think about the fact that you know, I'm not really sure what's a carcinogen and maybe I'll never know until it's too late.
SARAH M: Oh my god. At this point, I guess, assume that everything is and like I'm meeting I'm not going to tempt fate in obvious ways. While most not obvious ways.
AMANDA: Yes.
SARAH M: But yeah, it's funny too, because I feel like, like I was reading the other night as good old-fashioned dread fodder. This was inspired by a Reddit post I saw about this guy who was a golfer in I think, the 1920s and 30s, named Ebenezer McBurney Byers.
JULIA: What a name!
SARAH M: What a name, and I love it. And he, I'll name my next cat that and he injured his arm in a train accident. And so someone, I don't think actually a doctor, but somebody was like, oh, you should try this uranium patent medicine. It's great.
AMANDA: No!
SARAH M: And so he really liked it. And so he took a lot of it. And then obviously, like, you know, his jaw just fell right out of his face, because that's what happens. I wonder if we're in this moment of like, consumer goods being maybe less dangerous than they've ever been, but our awareness of how much we've been poisoned, being also greater than it's ever been? Which is good.
AMANDA AND JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH M: But like, you look back, and you're like, Why should I trust anyone? It's a really good question.
JULIA: Truly.
AMANDA: It is.
JULIA: I was like, trying to Google it well, while we were talking, but I can't remember the exact story. But it was like sometime in the, I want to say late 80s, early 90s, where there was an, not an epidemic, but like covered in the news someone had been going into like CVS is or some sort of drugstore and like putting poison in aspirin bottles or something like that. And again, it's this idea of an everyday item that we use all the time is now suddenly dangerous. And how could we have possibly known or prevented,
SARAH M: Is that the Tylenol murders?
JULIA: Yes, the Tylenol murders. That was it. Thank you.
SARAH M: And that one is creepy, because I, as far as I know, we never figured it out. We just don't know. And like-
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH M: Yeah. Like that had to have been such a before and after moment for people.
JULIA: Yeah. And I think that a lot of the like, urban legends that we see about like everyday items hurting us or being poisonous or being wrong in some way might have come from those moments. And that unknown now, like, this thing that's promised to me to be safe might not actually be safe.
SARAH M: Yeah. Yeah. Which is the agreement that you kind of live every day like, I'm, you know, I'm drinking a seltzer. I didn't make it. It's in a can I'm like, I have no, I can't see what's in here as I'm drinking it. Like it's an incredible amount of trust.
JULIA: I mean, that's why we have the safety seals on bottles like that now and even like stuff, like dressings and olive oils and whatnot. And it's like, we couldn't make that promise to you before we messed up, I guess because someone took advantage of that. Now we have to come up with a new system or a new solution to make it work.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah. It reminds me of airport security theater of, you know? If I cannot bring a large shampoo on this plane, and surely I'll never be killed in a terrorist attack. And I think your point, Sarah is really well taken that, you know, we know more than ever before life is safer than ever before. And yet, it feels the exact opposite. Because for most of us, you know, we have access to like an unfathomable amount of information. We've done a little bit on the show, talking about Internet, urban legends, creepypastas, Reddit, you know, myths that kind of originate and spread on social media. And it makes me so curious what you know, kids will be telling each other at sleepovers if I have the good fortune to make it to old age, you know, and like, will they be talking about Bloody Mary in the mirror? Or will they be talking about big boards? What is the Boogeyman? And how will they kind of I don't know, get that sense of courting disaster in a safe way-
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: -with one another, you know?
SARAH M: I really hope Bloody Mary never goes away. Or just like she like her name changes occasionally. But she's always with because I remember doing Bloody Mary in sixth grade. And it was like, probably one of the best moments of my entire middle school experience, it might have been the best because we all went into the bathroom, you have to turn off the lights, obviously. And then you're like chanting Bloody Mary into a mirror. And then obviously, if you have a group of middle school girls together, like one of them will get freaked out and start screaming.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: And then you'll all get freaked out and start screaming and then you're just like a bunch of 11-year-olds screaming together in the dark, which is really what all of this has been about and it's just perfect.
AMANDA: Yeah, that is true. I mean, there is something I don't know. Like my brain always flashes back to this some part of my body recognize this as you know, being in the, like, palpable heat of other humans in a cave, right? But like something scary outdoors, and some part of me feels right and safe-
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: -to be on the inside and not the outside. And I think we can all identify as weird kids, you know, formerly or presently, and particularly, I think, as a weird kid, it felt really good to be the person watching someone else do the like crack an egg down your neck, you know, to be like, yes, like I am. I am in it. I know it. I am [24:57] group. I am not the one being pranked.
SARAH M: Yeah. And also, I guess the sense of safety. I forget who wrote this. But there's a wonderful quote about how reading I think True Crime specifically can feel like if it feels alien to your own life, which I think is the way that a lot of it has been sold over time can feel like sitting in like a cozy window seat as the rain falls outside and like it is outside and you are inside and like the coziness and safety of your situation is enhanced by that. But I like this metaphor a lot better, where it's like, not only are you safe, but also you're not alone. Like you're infolded within the safe part of society. Like you're not out there where the scary things happen. And you know, and the reality is that a lot of the scary things are just happening in the cave, but like, but I think we still need these moments of comfort, even if we can know that.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. I'm just like picturing now that moment, where we're going to all go into the bathroom at the sleepover. And I want to do that while we go grab our refill.
SARAH M: Okay.
[theme]
AMANDA: Okay. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the refill. I know we really tried to hold it together while interviewing Sarah Marshall, but holy shit, we interviewed Sarah Marshall, can you believe it? I have been loving her podcast and analysis for years. I caught up on the backlog of so many of her podcasts during the early days of lockdown. I was so excited. Okay, keep it together. Welcome to our newest patrons, Maddy, Kelsey, Mandy, and Evil Evel! spelled two different ways. Thank you so much for your support. You join the ranks of supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Little Vomit Spiders Running Around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi and our legend level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Iron Havoc, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty, thank you all so much. Thank you to everybody who has joined our Patreon this month. We so appreciate it. And hey, come here. We got some exciting new stuff coming to the Patreon in September. Very excited about it. We're going to tell you much more about it as we approach, oh, I wonder if there's any milestones coming up for us? Maybe, I don't know, a round number, maybe slightly fewer episodes. And there are days in a year. I have to think of more things that 300, oh, like the movie that was 300, right? We're so excited. Lots of good stuff is coming get on over patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And as you know every single episode, we take some time to recommend something to you that we are loving, we will have something that we're reading, watching listening to. I saw Nope outdoors at a drive-in movie theater a few weeks ago. I really enjoyed it almost I think equally the movie and the experience of sitting in a lawn chair in a parking lot on the East River watching a movie outdoors it was really awesome. And if you have a drive-in movie theater near you, I highly recommend it. It's a good experience. But the specific thing that you all can enjoy is a book I have been loving called The Bodyguard by Katherine Center. I love romance we all know this. And there is nothing I love more than a trope where there is a kind of enemies to lovers maybe where they have to be in proximity to each other even though they don't want to. And this particular one is a trope that I've never read before but I really enjoy which is a bodyguard falling in love with the person they are guarding. This is really good and smart. It's got a little bit of action to it. It's a really great introduction to romance and to rom coms for anyone who hasn't read them The Bodyguard by Katherine Center. That book is linked in the description as well as at spiritspodcast.com/books, where you can one see a list of all of the books that we've recommended and our guests have written over the years of doing this podcast. It's a lot folks. And also buy a copy of the book shipped to wherever you are via bookshop.org. Which of course is a co-op supporting indie bookstores in the US. It's amazing. If you've run out of stuff to read and to listen to and you want to check out another show here in the Multitude Collective. 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[end of midroll]
JULIA: All right, and we're back. Sarah, we always ask our guests here. And if we're continuing our sleepover metaphor, what is the cocktail that you would bring to our adult sleepover that's happening right now?
SARAH M: Well, you know, I think I would actually I would get fancy and try and make pisco sours. So I think that involves egg white, but I think we deserve like-
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: I don't know, something green, like any kind of a green drink feels fitting. I haven't had one in years. So I think I'm probably maybe I'm realizing that it's time again. But yeah, I guess like green and tart feels very right for a myth sleepover.
JULIA: Yeah. And peak summertime cocktail.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: Which I appreciate because you want something that's like light and frothy and green and tart to kind of counteract how sweaty it is outside.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: And the froth also helps so you could really get a little cauldron and serve them out of yeah.
JULIA: All my drink should be served out of cauldrons.
AMANDA: I'll make us brownies with the egg yolks leftover-
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: -pisco sour egg whites and we're rocking and rolling.
JULIA: There you go. There you go. Well, thank you Amanda for that. So we were talking before about like the panics and the hysteria of like, let's say the 80s and the 90s. But definitely now we also, in the current day, face a lot of panic and hysteria over a vast number of things. This is probably going to be a very wide question for you. But like, is there one that either interests you the most, or concerns you the most?
SARAH M: Oh my god. I mean, do you ever watch one of those blackhead removal videos where like, it's all one big black head? It feels like that.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. Is the blackhead antisemitism? Is that what the blackhead is?
SARAH M: I think it's like a big part of the blackhead is antisemitism and then also just-
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: I think the first thing that comes to mind for me now and that feels again, like not like a separate panic, because sort of like building on the past couple of years of overt Q anon stuff and kind of Trump-centric, but certainly not Trump-inspired moral panic is, you know, the current rhetoric over-grooming, and groomers. And essentially, you know, legislation being passed that is masquerading as being against sex ed and really, it's not about that at all. And it's about the idea of from my understanding, the idea that if your child is exposed to ideas about sexuality, or gender identity at school, then like, that's bad. And they're being groomed. And anyone who is potentially in a position to help your child understand their identity in a way you don't like is grooming them. And so I think like that's scary for obviously, a lot of reasons, but one of them is that we're just like, it's just so overt about just directly accusing anyone you disagree with it, being an actual pedophile, and seems really bad can't really get away from that one.
JULIA: Yeah, no, and that's like a cycle too. Like, we're seeing the same rhetoric that was used in again, the 80s and 90s, to talk about, like queer folks being recycled and that's extremely fucked up. Because I feel like at least for a lot of people, we had hoped we had moved on from those talking points, for lack of a better word.
SARAH M: Right. It feels also directly like it exists directly to cause harm to the very children that it's claiming to protect, which I think is also probably key to a lot of what we're looking at lately is that it's, it's, it's always claiming to be about the child. And really, I think, in this case, in a lot of other cases, it's about the parents' belief that they get to own their child and decide who they're going to be and what kind of life they're going to have, which I would describe as abuse.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: And, you know, protecting the ideology that that's what parenthood is, which I think is also you know, at the heart of all this and very dangerous.
AMANDA: Yeah, the child is a cipher right is like a placeholder for innocence or possibility or what's going to be available to them in life that was not available to you. And that is setting everything up for you know, it's like the highest possible stakes and the absolute least possible help, you know, like nobody is saying, what do you need? What will give you more options? What will give you more tools? What will let you know, self-actualize, and go into the world to make decisions and deal with problems that I can't possibly imagine. How do I kind of retroactively process my own stuff? Upon the like, image of you?
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: As a queer person who didn't get a lot of like sexual ed regarding like queer relationships or queer identity, I still figured out I was queer, it didn't really matter.
SARAH M: How do you do that, though? How would a teacher-
JULIA: I don't know.
SARAH M: -like telling you to be queer did you manage that?
JULIA: Just kind of happened? I guess. That's weird. It's all those Disney movies.
SARAH M: I mean, this like it. Right. Like, well, I'm sure we've like been going in this circle forever. But it does feel like you know, the implicit argument there is like, my child's sense of identity is so present within them that if they hear even once about this thing that might resonate with them, then they will be that. It feels like that's the actual anxiety as opposed to you know, my children are being browbeaten into being nonbinary or whatever.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH M: People are claiming that they think it's like, I don't know, I feel like a key and a lot of these things, too, is that like, people are telling you what they know to be true, but can't accept.
AMANDA: Exactly it. It really feels I'm a huge advice column consumer. And I don't know why for whatever reason, like that is my True Crime. That is like the level of kind of conflict that I can handle. And hearing people with very soothing voices written or spoken sort of give you the steps you need to deal with a problem in your life is just like that is the that is the thing that relaxes me beyond all else, and reading urban legends. And it reminds me very much of problems were clearly like, it's not about the fight you had with your partner on vacation. It's not about like, unloading the dishwasher as like the one thing standing between you and bliss in your relationship like it is. It is the straw that broke the camel's back. It's like the one spark that caught fire. It's the thing that we've decided if we can only just fix this thing that everything's fine probably means that everything's not fine. And that it shouldn't be and that there is something else to address here. And that is the version of like, oh, you know, if a kid like sees a woman with short hair, then they'll realize they're trans. Like, probably it's something else is going to do that. Like probably it's not that we should sort of legislate gender expression. It's hate like, what what do you need? We’ll make your life easier, like listen to trans people. Listen to queer people, like we know what we need, like we will tell you.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Not that any of us don't agree with but it just it seems it seems so clear to me.
JULIA: Yeah, I don't know.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: Bears repeating.
SARAH M: Yeah, it really does.
JULIA: And I think that there is a lot of urban legends that are coming out of this kind of, I guess panic is the right word for it. I don't know what else to call it. And if you have a better word for it, please let me know. around like gender identity and, and queerness and stuff like that. And I know recently, one of the bigger stories that I've been seeing is around like, furries in schools.
SARAH M: Oh my God, I know, how did that and how do we get there?
JULIA: How did we get there?
SARAH M: Why must we slander furries.
JULIA: I know and it's so thinly veiled as a like, transphobic thing.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: You're just like, must we go there? Must we go there right now?
SARAH M: I mean, like, I have no specific hopes for what kind of child I end up with. Like, I do think that it would be nice to like, if I have any, if I lean in any direction, it's that I would like to have one of those like spooky horror movie kids.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH M: Like the little boy in the ring. Because they seem really low maintenance.
JULIA: They just wander in the woods all day and then they come back with like weird drawings.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: That's fine.
SARAH M: Then they have weird friends, little ghost girls who talked to them, but they dress themselves and they lay out your outfit. But if I had a furry kid, like, oh my god, I will be so happy. Like, if your child knows what they're into, then that means they know what they're into. Which means that they're ahead of probably you and most other people.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: That is true. The only thing we'd have to talk about is like fur suits are expensive. So we have to come up with like a, like a cost-efficient way of you expressing that.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: That's great. You have a clear goal. Let's teach you you know, delayed gratification and how exciting it is to like put a little bit aside each week for a goal like love that for you.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: Or sewing. Time to learn how to sew, kid.
AMANDA: Yeah, like if I had a kid who's a drag queen, I'd be like, my life has prepared me to be an excellent parent for you. Like let's obviously of course, I probably then just end up with a like very like normie kid who loves like sports and being straight and I'm just like, love this for you also, you know? If you have any weird friends who you know are very into Broadway, I can be the fun parent and make sure that they sort of I like slip them a Mel Brooks soundtrack like-
SARAH M: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: Lend at them a copy of Rent and be like, you know, this unlock something in you. You can talk to me.
SARAH M: It is funny thinking about like, like, yeah, as a parent sort of figuring out what ages to sort of start your kid on, or like offer to them the things that you liked and the hopes like my mom introduced me to Joni Mitchell in eighth grade and in retrospect, I think that was very calculated.
JULIA: She was like, this is the perfect time that it will consume your little soul.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: Go for it.
SARAH M: It was
JULIA: Oh, now I'm just thinking about creepy kids and all the like urban legends and stories about them. Creepy kids are like one of our favorite things on this podcast because I am of the firm belief that during at least some period of time all children are creepy.
SARAH M: Oh my god, they're all creepy. That's just their thing.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And a lot of it has to do with like, hey, listen, I know you don't know what like social cues are just yet. So when you say stuff to me, like, oh, yeah, you know, I remember when I was an old man when I lived in that house, and they just point out a random house and you're like, What are you talking? Explain to me what you're saying here? I need to know I need context.
SARAH M: Yeah. And like any kid can be psychic or have a past life or have gone to heaven if the adults around them believe it, I think. And this reminds me of I love the Jezebel scary story contest every Halloween partly because I love scary stories. And I'm also I guess it's like the hen was at Henry James or William James. And the thing was William James, one of the James dudes was like a big paranormal investigator. And his thing was like, we don't need to prove that there's a bunch of white crows we guess if we to disprove that all crows are black. We just need one white crow, I guess one ghost story that I can believe and I'm always looking for one. And because of that I'm ruthless about the ones I find less credible. So my rule is that if if you're going to tell me a ghost story, you need to have been awake the entire time. I don't want to hear a ghost story where you woke up in the middle of the night and there was a ghost I went back to sleep because you were dreaming.
AMANDA: Yeah, brains. Our brains are so weird. brains can do lots of things.
SARAH M: Right?
AMANDA: So, I liked that role.
SARAH M: But there's one in there that I love that was like I have a creepy little toddler and one time, she said when I was a little girl I died in the pool. And my first thought was like, what she trying to say dived? And also, when you're four, don't you think you were a little girl when you were three? That's my theory.
AMANDA: That's good.
SARAH M: No, that's fair. That's totally fair.
AMANDA: My version of that is like, if I would make that mistake, conjugating verbs and French, probably because verbs are hard, or like imagination, like imaginative play is really fun.
SARAH M: Right. Well, and this directly connects to the Satanic Panic, just like everything in the entire world. Because, you know, one of the reasons we ended up with these bonkers stories from initial questioning of kids in nursery school, three to three and four-year-olds is that you know, there's tape of quite a lot of this. And you can see that they are kind of moving around into imaginative play. And then they will say something that the questioner is like, okay, that could be a crime. Let's get literal. Now, we're going to talk about this is something that literally happened, and I'm going to question you as if you're on the stand. And it's weird, too, because adults just imagine stuff all the time as well. So the fact that we don't sort of like maybe we're not in touch with the fact that that's true about ourselves when we don't give kids the freedom to be imaginative about stuff.
JULIA: I think also, just like children, in general, don't have the language to express this thing that I imagined versus a thing that actually happened to me.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: And that's where it becomes very creepy for a parent or an adult in their life because there'll be like, there was a man in my closet, and you're like, was there an actual man in the closet? Or did you imagine a man in your closet? Like, we need to know this? Because this concerning if it's the other one.
SARAH M: This exact confusion is one of the major plot points and Saw and it's great.
JULIA: Oh, gosh, yeah, but all children are creepy because we don't really remember what it's like to be a child. I think that's part of it, too.
AMANDA: No, we don't. And everything is new. Like my, my partner, Eric and I will be walking around. And like if we ever see a baby that looks particularly like a drift, or confused, one of us will just like, lean over and be like, what's happening? Where am I? Why? Why am I here? Like, everything is new. And it just it puts it all in perspective. Like everything is new when you're figuring it out. Like I remember teaching my younger siblings, the colors, and like that happened. That's true for every person in the world. And it's just, it is so amazing. Like Julia and I were talking the other day about how both of us has bookish children, you know, I just turned 30 like I am constantly noticing myself saying words that I've only ever read, never said out loud. And I've said millions of words in my lifetime, and I've been alive for you know, hundreds of 1000s of hours. And yet I am still for the first time like saying a word that I've only ever read and the like newness and vastness of human experience is something that I am constantly still wrapping my brain around.
JULIA: See Amanda, you say that about the babies and my immediate thought was you're going to say that baby sees all the ghosts, which I've started doing with my friends' babies where if that baby just stares past me I'm like Oh, is there a ghost there? And my friends are like, please stop saying that, it's extremely creepy. I love that.
SARAH M: Well, I mean cats can see ghosts as well so why not?
AMANDA AND JULIA: Exactly
JULIA: If cats can see ghosts, babies can see ghosts.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: I stand by it.
SARAH M: They have a lot in common.
JULIA: This is the hill that I'm going to die on. Cats and babies seeing all the ghosts.
AMANDA: Dogs are just happy to be here man. It's great.
JULIA: Dogs are just happy to be here. And I'm happy that they're here.
AMANDA: Sarah, was there anything you wanted to make sure that you like brought up or touched on that we have not asked you about?
SARAH M: Hmm. Open Water 2: Adrift is a really underrated horror movie. That's it.
JULIA: Love it. Oh, open water movies. Very scary.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: Not a big fan of those.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: I like the ocean. I don't want to be afraid of the ocean.
SARAH M: Yeah, I just you know, I think the trick is to stay at the very edge of it.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah
JULIA: That's fair.
AMANDA: We are from a beach town on Long Island, New York. And there's just a lot in there. Don't go deeper. That's what lighthouses are for.
SARAH M: That also reminds me of a book that I read when I was a kid. I really liked the So You Want to Be a Wizard books by Diane Duane. When I was a tween.
AMANDA: Oh my god, me too. They're my whole personality-
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: -Sarah, my whole personality.
SARAH M: People either have never heard of them. And they're like, [gasp] and wasn't the second her. I think the second book but wasn't in Long Island Sound Deep Wizardry. They had to do like under the ocean magic.
AMANDA: Yes, it was.
SARAH M: Yeah, those are good books.
AMANDA: I found those in a basement library and like the quaint small town where my grandparents lived over a summer where I was there and like, talk to nobody and just like walk to the library every day. I'm still not certain that I didn't sort of fall into the book.
SARAH M: Yeah.
AMANDA: Because opening scenes of the book are very similar. And I was sitting there like, what's happening to me?
AMANDA: It's amazing.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: Oh, you're a baby in that moment.
AMANDA: Yes, exactly.
SARAH M: Yeah, no, I think you did. I think that is I don't know there. was, and especially reading it in the age of Harry Potter. There's something like the if you haven't read these books, there's a lot in them about entropy.
AMANDA: That's true. It's really more like Madeline, I've always said, L'engle? This is the first time I've ever seen her name out loud. Fuck it happened! No, I summoned did.
SARAH M: I've always said L'engle. I mean, what are you? Are we [50:22] you're gonna say L'engle?
AMANDA: No, I'm gonna be like a British person and say I want to crossaint, please. Yes, no. Madeline, it's way more kind of like the metaphysics of space and time, then, you know, like boarding school, you know, novel.
SARAH M: A quarter these kids are evil.
AMANDA: Yes. Sarah, my final question for you is, wonder if you could weigh in on a long-standing debate we've had on the podcast, let's say you do wake up in the middle of the night or you're cozily studying at your desk and you hear a mysterious noise somewhere in the house. Are you Team got to get up and investigate? Or are you Team ignorance? Let's let it go. If it's dangerous, it'll find me. And if I ignore it, maybe it'll stop.
SARAH M: Hmm. Hmm. It's a really good question. I feel like if it actually creeps me out, I'm going to try to ignore it and like, sit there and rationalize it. But if it's something really loud, I'm gonna go to an investigate, because I'll assume that like, a piece of furniture has fallen over or that or that a cat has done something. That's the thing with cats who just are like, well, this is the cat, but I think it's like if it were something that I found genuinely creepy, I would be less inclined to go look, which I think is a bad instinct in a horror movie. But-
AMANDA: The majority of our audience shares your instincts.
SARAH M: Oh, good. Okay.
AMANDA: Good.
JULIA: So we're our audience is pretty evenly split on Team ignorance or team go check it out. And so we always appreciate some insight. I'm going to postulate a secondary option there for you, which Amanda gave you just creepy noise in general.
SARAH M: Yeah.
JULIA: I'm going to give you the option of creepy music, whispers.
SARAH M: Whispers.
JULIA: Footsteps.
SARAH M: Okay. Hmm, I guess if any of that happened. Yeah, I would like come charging out to see what was going on. Because again, I want to eliminate like, yeah, did a cat turn the TV on? Do I have an Alexa that I forgot about? You know what? Like, yeah, if it's humanoid, then yeah, I need to I need to learn about that.
AMANDA: Yeah, I know. I want to know, I'd rather look at my death face to face than like sit in my room wondering if there is a stranger in my home.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH M: Right.
JULIA: And like, my, my anxiety is worst case scenario brain anxiety.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: So I'd rather confirm like, hey, nothing's wrong.
SARAH M: Right.
JULIA: Because my brain is going to make it so much worse if I don't.
AMANDA: I'd be like, amazing, a carbon monoxide leak? I know what to do with that. Like, whatever my brain can conjure up.
SARAH M: I guess also like, if it seems like a living person, I'm gonna want to like confront that. But if it seems like a ghost, or if I'm telling myself it's a ghost, then like, I guess I also have like a don't bother ghosts policy. Like I think-
AMANDA: Yes.
SARAH M: -if I were to have ghosts, I would simply deal with it.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. No, after after six years of doing the show, I feel very much the same. Where, are ghosts real? Who can say? I'm desperately looking for, I'd love to believe it. But you know, will I sort of like greet a new home or whisper an apology if I heard it? Absolutely, I will.
JULIA: Yeah, we've we found the politeness always works on ghosts. 90% of the time. If you say Hey, can you stop it please? Or if you'd be like, hey, my guy, I hear you. Enough. They'll usually listen to you.
AMANDA: Loving this shenanigans also have to sleep in the morning. And then they're like, Okay, yeah.
JULIA: There you go. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. Can you tell people where they can find you and your work on the internet?
SARAH M: Thank you so much for having me. This was such a nice hour of my life. So you can find me on the podcast You're Wrong About on You Are Good, a feelings podcasts about movies. They both start with the word you so that's convenient, and you search them up simultaneously that way. And I am on Twitter @Remember_Sarah and I am spending way too much time on there lately. Last night I tweeted a thread where I tried to take a screenshot of every single outfit that Kirsten Dunst and Michelle Williams wore in Dick, and I'm really happy that I put my time into that because it was worth it.
AMANDA: Yey!
JULIA: That sounds like quality entertainment that people should be following you for.
SARAH M: Those clothes are so good. It's the best outfits.
AMANDA: It is. I also feel a need to say watch Kirsten Dunst's TV show about MLMs it's incredible. It's very worth it.
JULIA: Excellent. Excellent. And remember listeners while you were doing that and not investigating the creepy sounds downstairs. Remember-
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[outro]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KM