Episode 303: Dragons, Revisited
/We’ve got a lot of dragons in pop culture; funny dragons, scary dragons, wise dragons, vicious dragons. But who is the BEST dragon? Amanda and Julia are doing another bracket to figure it out!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death and immolation.
Housekeeping
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this I'm told is something to do with dragons?
JULIA: It is. Amanda, at the time of release, we should be about halfway through the first season of the House of the Dragon on HBO.
AMANDA: Which I have been watching and loving the hell out of.
JULIA: I am reserving judgment to see how the season ends. But yes, I am also very much enjoying it.
AMANDA: You know, it reminds me of a Julia younger, a younger me, a simpler time, an easier time here in America, where all we really talked about at work was not the various impending dooms but what happened on Game of Thrones last night, and, you know, I'm here for a cultural moment. It's exciting to have something to unify us. And, you know, I didn't think I'd care about this medieval motherfuckers, but I care about them. And most of all, I care about their dragons, where the technology of like, who has dragons, what that means, and how it is used in the project of nation building is incredibly interesting to my fantasy, not just a fantasy nerd mind, but like a fantasy infrastructure nerd mind like, that is what I'm here for.
JULIA: I love that. I can't wait to talk more about this. It's gonna be great. So I was looking at our old episodes, because I was like, well, I'm thinking a lot about dragons because I'm watching House of the Dragon. And I went back in our archives, and the last time we covered dragons on the show, was when Game of Thrones ended.
AMANDA: It can't be true. That was what? Five years ago.
JULIA: I don't know if it was five years ago. I think it was it must have been like 2018 or something. It was early it was like in the hundreds you know, it was episode like 180 something
AMANDA: Julia, that was four years ago and something.
JULIA: Yeah, no, wild so what I wanted to do was kind of revisit dragons but we did cover a lot of dragons in that episode so I decided Amanda instead we're going to decide the best dragon.
AMANDA: Oh, another bracket?
JULIA: It's another bracket, baby! Pew! Pew! Pew! Pew!
AMANDA: You know, Julia. This is also our first episode in calendar Fall? I forget the adjective.
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: But like it is properly Fall here now for us, which is the time that I thrive. This is my Super Bowl. This is my holiday season. This is my summer break. Like, I am ready if the leaves are turning, so is my mind because I feel back in the real me I am ready.
JULIA: Yes, I am so excited. I think dragons do feel kind of Fall-y to me in a way and I don't know why but they do.
AMANDA: Fire, you know?
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: Fire changing the leaves on the trees outside right now.
JULIA: That's very western dragon again.
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: We can discuss later on the nature of various different types of dragons because we are going to cover a wide variety here. But these are not dragons from mythology, folklore, and urban legends, but rather, dragons from our pop culture and the world we live in.
AMANDA: Beautiful, can't wait.
JULIA: So we have 16 different dragons here that we are going to decide which is the best of. Amanda, do you want to talk very quickly about how we're going to determine who is best dragon?
AMANDA: Well, I think something that worked well as off track and unhinged as our vampire bracket got with the great folks behind Queer Movie Podcast. I liked that we focused on like, what lives in my mind if I had a kid draw a dragon or if I sort of built like a Pinterest board about dragons, like what dragon gets at the heart of dragon-ess that really is what I'm going for, like as close to the sort of platonic ideal of what dragons are and they represent as I could possibly get. But listen, I'm here to sort of be taken off track if there's something unexpected that I hear and really love. I'm going to entertain it but I think ultimately saying, you know if you had to pick one dragon which dragon would you pick? The qualities and criteria that I'm thinking of are you know, what gives me the most bang for my buck? Who is the biggest, the fiercest the most cunning, the most kind of originating or representative of what makes dragons awesome.
JULIA: Yeah, I think that is great. I am going to go through the list as we did in our vampire episode. I'm sure there are some that didn't make the cut or I forgot about. I apologize. I know this list in particular is not very video game-heavy. So if you are a big video game fan, and I forgot that dragon from Final Fantasy or the ones from Dragon Age, there's definitely dragons in those or Skyrim. I apologize. Those aren't games that I played.
AMANDA: You know, that's I think the beautiful thing about dragons and about these brackets is that these ideas these people, you know, vampires, werewolves, dragons like, these are really so pervasive. There are so many examples of how they exist in pop culture and the world around us. Nothing can possibly round up in them all.
JULIA: Yeah
AMANDA: And so that's a beautiful thing. And like we said last time, do brackets with your friends.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's so exciting especially if you're not sports people be like, hey, you know what, this one thing from sports, it's really worth bringing into sort of pop culture realm. Figure it out with your friends and and let us know what you find out.
JULIA: That is true. Also, just as a heads up the dragons that I picked for this list were crowdsourced from the Multitude Slack. So these are the dragons that we think of when we think yo, this is the best dragon.
Let's do it. I'm excited.
Alright, number one, Amanda. Okay, is going to be the Smaug versus Puff.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, two more different dragons you could hardly find.
JULIA: Yes, so let me give you some descriptions for these before we get into the nitty-gritty of which one is better. So Smaug is the dragon and main antagonist in The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien. He's described in the book as being quote, “A most specially greedy, strong and wicked wyrm.” In the hobbit, he is already centuries old and was considered quote, “The greatest of the dragons of his day.” After driving out the dwarves from the Lonely Mountain he guarded his vast hoard of treasure within the mountain for 150 years. He knew his hoard to the ounce and was able to tell when Bilbo Baggins stole a single golden cup from the hoard while he slept. He was even able to sense Bilbo when he turned himself invisible with the ring. Smaug was particularly difficult to kill because years of sleeping on his hoard left his soft underbelly encrusted with jewels and gems, therefore making him nearly invulnerable, except for a small bear patch. He was eventually killed by Bard, the Bowman after a thrush, like a bird overheard Bilbo sharing the weak spot with the dwarves, and then the thrush told the Bowman who shot the dragon in the weak spot with his final arrow.
AMANDA: Wow. So cinematic.
JULIA: Yes, really, really impressive.
AMANDA: Someone called Peter Jackson. This is a good idea.
JULIA: Hey, hey, Peter Jackson? Your Hobbit movies were just okay, but the other ones very good.
AMANDA: I know. I also gotta say that Benedict Cumberbatch covered in– in motion capture balls–
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: –that image lives in my head rent-free.
JULIA: Rent-free, baby. And then we have Puff. Puff, The Magic Dragon was popularized by the song performed by folk group Peter, Paul, and Mary, which was released in January of 1963. The song itself is based on a 1959 poem by Leonard Lipton, who was a 19-year-old Cornell University student at the time.
AMANDA: What?
JULIA: Yeah, wild right? The song and the poem tell the story of an ageless dragon named puff and his playmate who was a little boy who enjoys imaginary adventures with Puff until he grows up and moves on which leaves Puff heartbroken. Oh, no. And most people probably recall the opening lines to the song which is Puff the magic dragon lived by the sea and frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called Honah Lee.
AMANDA: Maybe that's where the autumn Association comes from for us,
JULIA: Maybe, maybe. I forgot that it says autumn mist until I specifically looked it up. But maybe it was just like, you know, in the back of my brain, Amanda yo. Alright, Amanda. Puff or Smaug?
AMANDA: For me, no contest for me Smaug for sure.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: And not just because Puff, the magic dragon, like most sentimental children's songs makes me cry as a full-grown adult.
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: Don't love that. But also because it feels like and this may be gets at the heart of what I think is valuable in a bracket like this. But puff is like a product of the archetype of dragons and not an originator of it. And I think a lot of the Dragon stuff that we have consumed in the 20th and 21st century does in some way come from Smaug which is a real kind of like, you know, for better and worse, like Tolkien really defined what high fantasy is–
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: –and who does and doesn't belong there, which we're seeing beautifully spoken about by people on the internet right now as the Lord of the Rings show comes out, but that's what I think is going to be proceeding into the next round for me.
JULIA: Yeah, I think absolutely Smaug. When I think dragon, I think Smaug and like you said it's because Tolkien had such an impact on what we consider high fantasy now that it's hard to separate like the fantasy dragon from the character of Smaug. Alright, Amanda, we're gonna move on next to one that I think that you will have either fun time with or a hard time with. And this is Spyro versus the dragons from Dragon Tales.
AMANDA: Oh, no! My best friend Spyro, the video game I play most often.
JULIA: That is true. I did know that about you. I was like, well, we have to include Spyro that's on there.
AMANDA: Oh man, I've argued for Spyro and Head Heart Gut. So let's remind the audience who's not obsessed with this 90s Playstation character who Spyro is.
JULIA: Right, so Spyro is the protagonist of the Spyro video game series. He is a energetic young purple dragon. He is usually accompanied by a dragonfly named Sparks, who also acts as a health representation in the games. He is featured in 13 different video games, not including the Spyro reignited trilogy that came out in 2018, because I think those are just remakes of the original three games. Fun fact, Amanda. He was originally named Pete and was green, but was renamed as to not be confused with Disney's Pete's Dragon and was changed to purple so that he wouldn't blend in with grassy areas of the map. Did you know that?
AMANDA: I did know that.
JULIA: Whoa!
AMANDA: Only because of my Head Heart Gut research. And I thought that was incredibly funny because a dragon named Pete and just a video game series headlined by someone named Pete I think would be less marketable.
JULIA: Hilarious, truly, also a great plug goes into Head Heart Gut, it's really great multicrew.club, go check it out.
AMANDA: Yeah, we have a whole public feeds if you search for Head Heart Gut in your podcast player, you can even listen to some sample eps.
JULIA: Yeah. So in the games, Spyro fights his enemies by charging them with his horns or breathing fire, has the ability to glide but requires power-ups to fly freely. He's described as brash and eager for adventure when he's first introduced, but later iterations have him more mature and laid back even though he's still unafraid to trash talk his enemies.
AMANDA: Yeah, he's really the fan of the quippy one-liner in the cutscene. It's very exciting.
JULIA: He loves a quippy one-liner that was really just the vibe of late 90s early 2000 games as a whole.
AMANDA: Yeah, and they just say like, “Thanks, loser!” as you're, you know, you're like gem count buffers in the corner of the screen.
JULIA: Incredible, truly great. And so they're up against the dragons from Dragon Tales. So Dragon Tales was an educational children's series that was broadcast on PBS premiering in 1999 and ended in 2005. This series follows Emmy and Max who are two human siblings who are able to travel to Dragonland, which is a magical land inhabited by you guessed it, dragons. They befriend four friendly dragons the strong but cowardly, Ord, the shy but sweet, Cassie, and the twins Zak and Wheezie. Poor Wheezie, man, he got the worst name out of that group, huh? Each of the Dragons have their own like badges that are kind of like necklaces that they wear around their necks, which glow when they overcome the thing that they find most difficult to do. So for example, when Ord is brave when Cassie overcomes her anxiety, big mood, Cassie, when the twins overcome their differences and work together. That's like when their badges glow. And the show also uses a lot of music to teach lessons and is also focused strongly on encouraging children to have honest and candid expressions of emotion.
AMANDA: Not bad.
JULIA: Not bad. Did you watch the show as a kid because I remember watching the show as a kid?
AMANDA: I did not watch the show. But I am aware of it as a thing that other people were familiar with. And I remember seeing like VHS tapes, you know, and like books and stuff like that at garage sales or like in other kids' homes.
JULIA: Yeah, they like grab onto a little dragon scale. And they go I wish I wish with all my heart to fly with dragons in the land apart. And I was like, Yeah, me too. Girl. Me too. Totally want to do that.
AMANDA: I know. I– listen, I think this is a golden era of public media funding in the US not a thing that we are super fond of, in general. And the show is great and teaches great lessons and these dragons have a lot more variety of personalities and Spyro, who while I love him, and while I suggest that everybody within Nintendo Switch by the Spyro remastered trilogy, just classic platformer, it's really fun. I got to go with Dragon Tales here because they teach useful lessons. There's a variety of personality types, and you know we love a signature rhyme, though I think Sparks is the cutest like sidekick of any video game.
JULIA: I'm very surprised, Amanda, I didn't think you would go with Dragon Tales over Spyro oh my goodness!
AMANDA: I'm putting my you know, my love of the draft and my desire to get to what's right over my BFF Spyro the Dragon here.
JULIA: Rip. You could also play him on PlayStation, which I also did during the pandemic So shout out to both of us replaying the Spyro games. Also one of the levels is so broken that I can't 100% the game and it bothers the crap out of me.
AMANDA: Is it the one with the trees and the ramps?
JULIA: Yeah, the skateboards. I can't I can't do those skateboard levels. I'm not good.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: I'm not coordinated like that.
AMANDA: No, I know. They're tough.
JULIA: So broken, so broken. Alright, so we're gonna move on to our next section, which is, again, I don't play these games. So I'm so sorry if I mispronounce this, but it's Nicol Bolas from Magic the Gathering and Charizard from Pokemon.
AMANDA: Oh, another iconic lineup. Okay, tell me about this Magic the Gathering dragon. Oh, was Magic dragon? But like most of them are.
JULIA: Yeah, so Nicol Bolas is the most infamous of the Elder Dragons and Magic the Gathering. He has styled himself as quote, “The mind Ripper, the Deathbringer, the winged dark that terrifies your dreams”, which is very angsty, by the way.
AMANDA: Oh yeah.
JULIA: He was at one point in the Magic the Gathering continuity, the most powerful Planeswalker in them. multiverse he is a gold dragon and unlike other dragon stands on two legs and uses his tail for balance, he is fire breathing and is considered along with his twin, one of the oldest beings alive.
AMANDA: Oh, he's a twin? Why is the twin not as notable?
JULIA: The twin is just not as notable, like again, I don't play Magic the Gathering. I believe his twin helped like destroy him because he was like being a dick, I think.
AMANDA: That’s fair.
JULIA: He's an antagonist anyway.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: This one line from the Magic the Gathering wiki is absolutely wild. Just listen to this quote. “He sired whole races populated entire plains and then hunted them to extinction for his amusement.
AMANDA: Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's classic like evil dragon mentality.
JULIA: And so he's basically considered by fans to be one of the major antagonists in the Magic the Gathering storyline.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: And that goes next to another sweet boy. Sometimes sweet sometimes not–
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Which is Charizard
AMANDA: Yeah, Charizard is a– is a finicky guy who loves to disobey.
JULIA: Yeah, he is. So Charizard also known as the flame Pokemon is a dual fire flying Pokemon introduced in Generation One of the Pokemon games, and was the game mascot for Pokemon Red as well as the remake Fire Red. It is the final form of Charmander evolving from Charmeleon at Level 36. Charizard is based on European dragons which are heavily associated with fire and I just loved this one Pokedex entry from Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, which is quote, “Charizard flies around the sky in search of powerful opponents. It breathes fire of such great heat that it melts anything. However, it never turns its fiery breath on any opponent weaker than itself.” Yeah, It's kind of sweet, right?
AMANDA: It is.
JULIA: It is also the first Pokemon to appear in the Japanese version of the Pokemon anime because in the Japanese version of the anime, it is the like first poke upon on screen in the first episode, you're like, oh, cool, but in the opening in all other countries, like the shadow of Mew Two is first and then Charizard comes in.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: So, Nicol Bolas or Charizard?
AMANDA: So, Nicol sounds like the prototypical evil dragon, right?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: The dragon that is like at the end of the quest at the back of the cave standing between you and final victory, you know, ultimate boss kind of situation. And I think that that really merits real consideration it makes total sense that a dragon is like the primeval primordial you know generator and also destroyer of whole peoples like that checks out with the myth of dragons in my mind and thinking about House of the Dragon, too, you know? Dragons are a really big deal seeing one means you should be really afraid. And–
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: You know, they are very powerful and access to them, who has them etc, you know, really matters like I was saying earlier. But Charizard, Julia, has such a place in my heart, Charizard as a powerful and willful creature, where more than perhaps at least from my, you know, my memory turns or maybe someone who misbehaves the most is that true in the anime? Like and certainly in the game, you know, if it levels up too much, it'll, it'll disobey you.
JULIA: Right. So the enemy does reflect that in the way that basically like, Charizard leveled up too quickly and now doesn't listen to Ash during battle.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: And that is a mechanic that is in the Pokemon games as well, which is like if you level up one of your Pokemon too quickly. And then you don't have the like badge or you haven't gone far enough in the game–
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: –they just won't listen to you. So you can't use them. But yeah, like Charizard always came across to me as sort of like a, like teen who is in a fight with their parent.
AMANDA: Yeah, and I think that goes a long way toward like, even in a universe where the whole concept is that human beings have a like working, if not sort of dominant relationship over Pokemon.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: The Pokemon that they choose to kind of snap back at you and maybe like, send your eyebrows with its breath if it doesn't like how you're acting is Charizard and is a dragon and it's not lost on me too that like both in the game and in reality, or in myth. Myth is reality. That's the whole thing of the show.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: The fact that dragons are powerful, and in the case of the template of Charizard, breathe fire, and also fly is the thing. That is why they are terrifying, that is why they are unstoppable and so powerful. And so the fact that you go from a pure fire Pokemon to fire flying is really useful in game and also just like strikes me as such a good encapsulation of why dragons are terrifying. They're not just a quick you know, beast on land. They can motherfucking fly and that is a huge deal. So I think Charizard’s going to take the day for me.
JULIA: I have to bring up a quick point and you can refute it or you could acknowledge and we can move on. Does Charizard lose points towards being best Dragon by not being a dragon-type Pokemon?
AMANDA: I don't think so.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Listen, I think that's legitimate, but sometimes you have to have like primary example from which all others flow and the first thing isn't categorized as it should be. Maybe that'll factor into my later considerations in the bracket. But listen Magic fans, I look forward to learning more about Nicol but it's not a character I am very familiar with right now. And I'm a child of the 90s I gotta go with Charizard here.
JULIA: Apologies specifically to Misha who is my DM in a Magic the Gathering Planeswalker D&D campaign. I'm sure this is a very cool character, but we haven't run into him yet. So I'm like, eh!
AMANDA: This is my bracket. Yours might be different. That's the beauty of this, y’all
JULIA: That'strue. That's the beauty of it. Alright, Amanda. We're gonna get to the other side of our bracket in just a second but first, let's grab a refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, it's Julia, and welcome to the refill. I have been absolutely vibing so hard with these new kind of March Madness bracket style episodes. So if you like these, please let me know and I will maybe do some more in the future. I think there are a lot of fun if you have a suggestion of a topic that you would like us to cover please, please, please let me know. And I feel like I have to give a little special priority to our newest patrons and what they've been thinking thank you so much, Sam by Day, Evelyn, Mab, and Wren for joining us on Patreon they join our esteemed supporting producer level patrons Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Iron Havoc, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi and of course, our legend level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Cicuta Maculata, Clara, Ginger Spurs Boi, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can join us on Patreon where we have some new exciting rewards including Amanda and I recently posted our new advice column section and we're going to be doing that every month. So if you just want to hear Amanda and I, you know, go back and forth give a little bit of advice, not advice from the gods but just advice from us as human beings, you can go to patreon.com/spirits and check out all the cool rewards over there. We are just heading into October and I love starting out October with some horror books. So I'm going to recommend one for you today that I'm in the middle of which is Just Like Home by Sarah Gailey. I love Sarah Gailey and all the stuff that they write. But this book is so creepy. I love a kind of haunted house, the house has become infected kind of book and this has so much of that energy, I am sure if you like spooky things as much as I like spooky things. You're gonna like that. But maybe you're not like super into spooky things right now, and that's okay. No judgement for me. But you do love folklore and stuff. Obviously, you're listening to Spirits. But have you listened to Exolore? Have you ever wondered what life would be like on a planet different from our own? Or how writers create your favorite fictional worlds? Well wonder no more because we have the facts for you every other week, astrophysicist and folklorist, Dr. Moiya McTier. of our Advice From Folklore episodes explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, Interviewing professional world builders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built. You'll learn, ou'll laugh, you'll gain an appreciation for how special our planet really is. Because it is really special. Guys, subscribe today by searching Exolore In your podcast app or going to exolorepod.com.
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JULIA: Alright, we're gonna move on to our next one Amanda which is Toothless from How To Train Your Dragon–
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: –against Haku from Spirited Away
AMANDA: Ah, okay. Oh, this will be tough. All right, Rowan Ellis argued very convincingly for Toothless and another episode of Head Heart Gut so if you're into dragons, check out Head Heart Gut do it.
JULIA: I was up against that and I felt moved by her argument so. Alright, so Toothless is a Night Fury from the How To Train Your Dragon franchise and one of the series two main protagonists. I'm gonna read you just the official How to Train Your Dragon website description for Toothless because it's very like it covers all the bases right? Quote, “Once thought as the unholy offspring of lightning and death itself. Toothless has proven to be more of a giant winged pussycat than the stuff of nightmares. Playful, inquisitive and intelligent Toothless is more Hiccup’s best friend than his pet. He is protective of his Viking soulmate, and will stop at nothing to guard him from all harm. As the last known specimen of the Night Fury species, Toothless is indisputably special. He commands respect from dragons and humans alike.”
AMANDA: Alright, I mean, what more can you say?
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. And then Haku from 2001 film Spirited Away is a river spirit who has both a human form which resembles a 12 year old boy and a dragon form that is very inspired by Asian dragons. He is able to fly both in Dragon and human form and has extensive knowledge of magic and the spirit world. His name, Haku means white, which is a reference to the color of his dragon form and the clothing that he wears in human form. In the American dub, he is voiced by Jason Marsden, who you might remember is also the voice of Binx from Hocus Pocus, who I famously have a crush on.
AMANDA: Yes, yes, a sexy voice. I know you do.
JULIA: So Amanda, do you go Haku? Or do you go to Toothless?
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, this is really hard. I could absolutely see Toothless making it far in this draft. I haven't though, watched this movie. And so I think the compelling personal journey of Toothless it's like centrality to this franchise is something I believe in, but I don't know myself. Whereas I've seen Spirited Away more times than I can count and who hasn't had a crush on Haku? Who hasn't had a crush on a 12 year old boy, he was also a dragon? I also think that this form of Dragon a river spirit a Flying Dragon, a Japanese folklore based dragon really deserves a spot in this bracket. So I'm having a tough time with this one.
JULIA: If I can persuade you one way or another because I understand the emotional connection to Haku, right?
AMANDA: Always.
JULIA: Toothless is also a disability icon.
AMANDA: Oh, that's true.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Oh, Toothless, okay, sorry, Haku, you've had your moment. Everyone has a crushe on you, we know this. We love your robe. You look cute. No, I think Toothless has a lot to add, and further to go in this bracket.
JULIA: Yes, I also just he's he's very cute. He's very cute.
AMANDA: So cute.
JULIA: I will say there are other Asian style dragons in this bracket. So don't worry, who is not the only one who is just hanging out there.
AMANDA: Good.
JULIA: Alright, Amanda. We are going now to our other side of our bracket. And the number one sead on the side of the bracket is going to be the Game of Thrones dragons against Figment.
AMANDA: Oh, two different dragons could not be found.
JULIA: For sure, for sure. So in Game of Thrones for the background for people who have not watched any Game of Thrones, more power to you.
AMANDA: Bless you.
JULIA: Daenerys Targaryen was given three dragon eggs as a wedding gift despite the fact that the world believed that the last dragon had died a century before. The dragon eggs hatched when Daenerys and the eggs were put to the flame of her husband's funeral pyre. The three dragons that were born were named Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal after her husband and her two brothers, and despite being referred to as her quote unquote, “children”, Daenerys really struggles to control her dragons, especially the largest of the three, Drogon. And dragons, like you said, Amanda in the Game of Thrones series have a really important tie to both the overarching history of the show, and also the themes of the show, especially for the House Targaryen who use dragons to both conquer and then unify the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros and then rule over the land.
AMANDA: Yes, they do.
JULIA: Yes, they do. And then they're up against Figment
AMANDA: Figment who I know mostly from that ride in Disney where they like Imaginarium. ride?
JULIA: Yes. So Figment is a small purple dragon that is the mascot for the now defunct Journey Into Imagination dark ride, in Disney's Epcot. There it is. In the original attraction, a jolly wizard/scientist named Dreamfinder teaches Figment how to use his imagination and Figment is supposed to represent the embodiment of the phrase ‘pigment of the imagination’. And despite how just okay, the ride was, Figment became a very popular character and is extensively seen in a majority of Epcot merch sold in the parks.
AMANDA: Listen, I was delighted when you mentioned Figment’s name. I have a definite memory. I liked the rides in Disney that don't make me nauseous and let me sit and like be in air conditioning.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: So I particularly liked this one. And listen, he's cute. He's random. He's, you know, kind of bug eyed and a little bit, you know, exuberant, but it's got to be the Game of Thrones dragons for me. And you know, House of Dragons, like I was saying really goes deeply into, you know, it's a prequel to Game of Thrones for those who don't know, and sort of traces the development of Daenerys Targaryen family that Targaryen like dynasty, you know, well before her birth, like 180 years before the events of Game of Thrones and they are kind of the best example that of maybe I have read anyway, or seen of dragons being hugely powerful and a weapon and confer a lot of power toward the ones who possess them. So because they are both an origin and a current interesting example. I am gonna go with those.
JULIA: You know, I'm on the same boat. I'm like, I love you Figment, you were a big part of my childhood but not today, my guy.
AMANDA: Not today, my guy.
JULIA: Alright, so, next on our bracket is going to be Shenron also known as the Dragon Ball dragon. And Falkor the Luck Dragon from the Never Ending Story.
AMANDA: Okay, neither properties I am particularly familiar with so this should be a pretty even matchup in my mind.
JULIA: Okay, excellent. Shenron also known as the Divine Dragon is a magical dragon from the Dragon Ball franchise I've said dragon so many times in that sentence. He resembles a traditional four toed Chinese dragon including brown antlers, sharp teeth, green scaly skin, red eyes, long serpentine body, long cat fish like whiskers, he can be summoned by gathering all seven of the Dragon Balls and upon being summoned can bestow upon the summoner any wish and in parentheses, (within his powers).
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: He is a neutral party in the Dragon Ball franchise who will grant any wish within his powers and will do so in a way that will bring the most joy to the summoner as opposed to say like a Jinn which is usually kind of like trickstery.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: He's very like, straightforward like, that's what you want, alright, more power to you.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: He is unable to restore life to those who died of old age sickness or other natural deaths. He cannot grant the same wish more than once. He also cannot grant a wish to defeat or kill a living being that surpasses the power of his own creator because he was like created. Also the Dragon Balls cannot be used for one year after he wishes granted by Shenron because they turn to stone. So his power is like limited but in a very, like cosmic way. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Yes, very, like, you know, rules of robotics situation.
JULIA: Yes, and then we move on to Falkor who if you are a like, late Gen X early Millennial probably either you love Falkor or it traumatized you, either. So Falkor is a look dragon from the movie The Never Ending Story. He is the only left dragon to appear in the film and has a giant, elongated, wingless body that is covered in white fur with a distinctly lion or canine like head.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, this guy. Uh huh.
JULIA: Yeah, we recognize him now, now that you’ve seen him.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
JULIA: How do you feel about that? Is that traumatizing where you love him?
AMANDA: I don't have a lot of associations with him apart from like, this is a face that I have seen kind of represented in memes. I'm eager to learn more.
JULIA: Okay, so in the film, Falkor is a optimistic dignified, wise creature that assists the protagonist Bastian. While he does not have like incredible strength or magical talents, he can breathe blue fire which is cool. But the most notable feature of Falkor and all the other luck dragons is that they have incredible luck in everything they do. Because luck dragons are constantly absorbing air and heat through their scales, they don't need to eat but they also cannot be submerged in water as it is deadly to them. Luck dragons.
AMANDA: Wow, this is getting that kind of animal mashup discomfort.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: All of his proportions are off. Based on like, what you would think.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Whether the template you're going for is Asian Dragon, Western dragon dog. None of its right. And that makes my brain a little bit itchy.
JULIA: Yeah. Also, the Neverending Story is like one those movies that they promoted it as a children's movie and then there are scenes in it that are like either horrifying or incredibly sad and you're just like, oh, why is this happening?
AMANDA: Yeah, this this movie's got no place in my heart and this dragon is interesting, but really different to what I think of when I think about Dragon so–
JULIA: Great.
AMANDA: I think it's gonna it's gonna pass and the Dragon Ball dragons are gonna live to fight another round.
JULIA: Alright, Shenron goes up into the next round. Excellent. We're gonna move on now to Trogdor the Burninator up against King Ghidorah.
AMANDA: Okay, I don't know who either of these things are. Let's go.
JULIA: Okay, so Trogdor the Burninator is basically a meme and I'll tell you the the origins of the meme. So basically, it was a character from the popular web series Homestar Runner. He first appeared in 2003 in Episode 58. In the episode, the character of Strong Bad demonstrates how to draw a dragon creating Trogdor.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: She was a dragon with a very muscular arm, a single muscular arm, and the ability to burninate peasants.
AMANDA: Okay, man, Homestar Runner was really the first example of like, jokes that other kids had that I felt excluded from–
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: –and here I am. So like, I'm, I've got some baggage with this one. I'm just going to come right out and say it.
JULIA: Listen, I was also like, unaware of this. While it wasn't meme, but it was a meme.
AMANDA: It was. Yeah.
JULIA: Kind of like really popular and became an inside joke with fans of the series. At the end of that episode, there was a heavy metal style music video about Trogdor. People really liked to Trogdor. They photoshopped him into a lot of images. It became a meme to the point where it was also included in the game Guitar Hero 2.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Basically, the creators of Homestar Runner saw how popular the character was and even went on to create to Trogdor-themed games, including a board game.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Man, they were really monetization queens. They really were.
JULIA: Yeah, so it was like a really big internet thing.
AMANDA: Yeah. Alright. Worthy consideration. I like it.
JULIA: Yes, Trogdar is up against King Ghidorah, which King Ghidorah is a three headed kaiju that first appeared in the 1964 Japanese film Ghidorah, The Three Headed Monster.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: He is typically portrayed as an armless bipedal golden scale dragon with three heads, two fan shaped wings and two tails. In some iterations, he is either a planet destroying dragon from another world or dimension, a genetically engineered monster from the future or the guardian of Ancient Japan. Through the various appearances in other kaiju films, he has become the arch enemy of Godzilla, and a common foe of Mothra though not exclusively, sometimes they team up you never know. The director and creator, Ishirō Honda said that Ghidorah is a modern take on the Japanese dragon Yamata no Orochi
AMANDA: I think this is gonna win. I am not giving the win over a Kaiju to a Homestar Runner video.
JULIA: More power to you, Amanda.
AMANDA: I will accept my fate as folks have thoughts on that but a meme approve its appearance and inclusion in this draft, but it is not going to be the one for me. Ghidorah seems extremely cool, and I like the idea. Unlike kind of high fantasy. This is a sci fi take on a dragon. And it having kind of like kaiju origins makes a ton of sense because it is a huge powerful monster and why shouldn't it be included in this draft?
JULIA: It sure is. It sure is.
AMANDA: I keep saying draft. Bracket,
JULIA: Bracket.
AMANDA: Bracket.
JULIA: I like the draft, too, that's fine. And then our final two here, Amanda before we get into our next round is Mushu from Mulan–
AMANDA: Oh!
JULIA: –against Blue-Eyes White Dragon from Yu-Gi-Oh!
AMANDA: No! Oh, Julia, this is so hard.
JULIA: So just as a reminder Mushu from Disney's 1998 Mulan is a small fast talking Chinese dragon. That is the self appointed guardian to the main character Mulan. He is voiced by Eddie Murphy. In the film, he was originally a guardian spirit for Mulan's family but prior to the film had been demoted after he failed to protect a family member who was a soldier who was somehow decapitated. We don't know how or why but we assume Mushu did a bad job at doing his protecting.
AMANDA: Yeah, one of many like office politics, jokes, footholds for parents who are watching kind of golden age of Disney movies with their children.
JULIA: That is true. It's very funny though. So wanting to be acknowledged as a quote unquote “real dragon”. He takes the place of the chosen guardian who is the great stone dragon after he accidentally destroys the statue that it resides in. Fun fact, Amanda, originally Mulan was not going to have a dragon sidekick. But the project that was being developed concurrently with Mulan was a Scottish folktale project that was eventually cancelled and the developed dragon sidekick character was transferred to Mulan.
AMANDA: Really? I thought you're gonna say like two people smashed into each other in the hallway and their and their, their laminates flew up in the air and then it landed side by side and they're like, “Wait!”
JULIA: Well, it was also really interesting because the character was much different until they casted Eddie Murphy and they're like alright, we got to change things.
AMANDA: I mean a real judicious use of mid 90s Eddie Murphy.
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: Sort of you know arguably peak of his fame
JULIA: A solid choice
AMANDA: Yeah
JULIA: Truly and then Blue-Eyes White Dragon.
AMANDA: I think is the first thing that multiple people said in the Multitude Slack.
JULIA: Amanda, you know Yu-Gi-Oh! better than me, do you want describe Blue-Eyes White Dragon?
AMANDA: I'm curious how you would describe it because Blue-Eyes White Dragon among card slingers we call ourselves, no we don't. I played Yu-Gi-Oh! competitively when I was child and Blue-Eyes White Dragon is the most powerful card you'd roll your eyes and somebody pulls it out because like a great like, you know not a lot of ways to kind of counter this at least to my you know, eight year old mind. It is perhaps the character with the most name recognition from Yu-Gi-Oh! except for Yu-Gi-Oh himself.
JULIA: Yeah, that is true. I think that is the case. So the way that the Yu-Gi-Oh! Wiki describes it, is that Blue-Eyes White Dragon is both a monster spirit and a DUEL MONSTERS card from Yu-Gi-Oh! Like I said, I haven't watched her read anything about Yu-Gi-Oh! in a while, so I kind of forgot that Blue-Eyes White Dragon like the spirit of Blue-Eyes White Dragon inhabited the body of a young girl named Kisara at some point.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, Blue-Eyes White Dragon out in the world.
JULIA: Yeah. One, the show handles like some weird stuff where it's like, all these characters have past lives in Ancient Egypt. And you're like, okay, I guess. So on the show, only four Blue-Eyes White Dragon cards were made. And so the duelist Seto Kaiba became obsessed with them and attempted to get all four for his own deck. When he found the fourth and final one, he won a duel to win it and then ripped it in half so that he could be the only user of the card in the world
AMANDA: Real kind of capitalist conquerer behavior.
JULIA: Yes. And also the showrunner has said that the reason that Kaiba is so obsessed with the card, might have had something to do with the fact that in his past life in Ancient Egypt, he attempted to save the life of Kisara, the young girl who the spirit of the Blue-Eyes White Dragon was inside of.
AMANDA: Yeah, if you're feeling really detached from reality, I can't recommend this. But otherwise, if you need to just kind of like think about another world, watch like five minutes of the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime and pause and just say to yourself, wait, what now? And it's a good time.
JULIA: Yu-Gi-Oh! is always my favorite example of how in a lot of children's media, they'll be like, Well, you can't kill people that you know that's, that's too serious for children. You can't just murder people on television. So they're like, alright, so what we're going to do instead is we're going to send them to a fucking alternate darkness dimension where they'll be trapped forever. And I'm like, you see how that's worse, right? You see how that's worse?
AMANDA: Yeah, it's pretty amazing, and I do just want to point out, Julia, I pulled up the the fandom wiki for Yu-Gi-Oh! and the biography of the character Blue-Eyes White Dragonis split up into two sections 1.1 Ancient Egypt and 1.2 1990s.
JULIA: Hey, Amanda? Same. It’s the same Wiki that I looked at and it's hilarious.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: So Amanda, is it gonna be Mushu, or is it going to be Blue-Eyes White Dragon?
AMANDA: Oh, man. Alright. I mean, Blue-Eyes White Dragon is oh, this is hard. This is hard. Okay. Mushu is iconic, but not a good dragon. And so I think if we're trying to get at what's the heart of a dragon here, what is the best representative of a dragon? Blue-Eyes White Dragon is incredibly powerful old storied, and has a backstory which I think the the kind of best dragons do it's actually like oh, a dragon is flying in the sky or oh, I you know encountered a dragon in the forest. It has to have importance and weight and Mushu was a working man's dragon and I you know, look forward to rewatching Mulan again soon. So I think I think Mushu will stay here in the first round. But love him, love that cricket, love that Horse. The animals in Mulan are great. We'll we'll revisit you again soon, goood friend.
JULIA: Excellent. Alright, so that takes us into our next round. Just as a reminder here are the competitors for this round. It is Smaug from The Hobbit, Dragon Tales, the TV series, Charizard from Pokemon, Toothless from How To Train Your Dragon, The Game of Thrones dragons from Game of Thrones, Shenron from Dragon Ball, King Ghidorah from kaiju movies and Blue-Eyes White Dragon from Yu-Gi-Oh!
AMANDA: Feels right, Julia. Feels right.
JULIA: Alright, so let's go up to our first pairing there and that is going to be Smaug against Dragon Tales
AMANDA: No question that Smaug, of course.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Alright. RIP to Dragon Tales, you taught us some good lessons as children we appreciate you for that.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: But you're not going into the next round.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Alright, next up then is going to be Charizard gainst Toothless.
AMANDA: Ugh! Oh gosh.
JULIA: I feel like nostalgia is going to win out here but I could be wrong.
AMANDA: See Julia, now I'm thinking about how Charizard is not a dragon Pokemon.
JULIA: There we go.
AMANDA: I think that is significant. I have lots of 90s Nostalgia still to come in the bracket. And I think that if I were more familiar with How to Train Your Dragon. Listen, it's a whole dragon based Universe. I think something from that franchise deserves to make it through and sweet moody Charizard can live in my heart and in my Switch as he always does.
JULIA: Alright, so Toothless moving on to the next round. Fascinating. Alright.
AMANDA: I’m glad I can still surprise you after all these years, Julia.
JULIA: I love when you surprise me. That's the best part of our friendship. Alright, next up we have the Game of Thrones dragons against Shenron from Dragon Ball.
AMANDA: Shenron confuses me.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Game of Thrones dragons are pretty iconic and current in the zeitgeist. So I think they're gonna go, they're gonna go for it.
JULIA: You know what Amanda the whole Dragon Ball franchise confuses me and I've watched like 300 episodes of that series.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It's still very confusing to me.
AMANDA: Yeah, I was more into Yu-Gi-Oh!, I was more into Dragon Ball and yet here we are.
JULIA: Yeah. Alright. And then finally for this round we have King Ghidorah versus Blue-Eyes White Dragon.
AMANDA: I mean, oh, boy. Love the nostalgia appreciate you, Blue-Eyes. If I found one in you know, a binder in you know, my mom's storage unit somewhere, I'd be excited. But King Ghidorah I think has the import the the length of time, and just the like size and interest here for me.
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, kaiju movies are so impactful in the way that they totally revamped the monster movie in the like post World War 2 Era and I super appreciate just kaiju movies and King Ghidorah’s kaiju movies as a whole.
AMANDA: Yeah, Blue-Eye have like, one head. King Ghidorah has three
JULIA: Isn't there like a leveled up version of Blue-Eyes White Dragon where it's like three heads?
AMANDA: Yes, there is.
JULIA: What was it called? Was it like three? Six eyes blue dragon or something like that?
AMANDA: Pure Eyes Ultimate Dragon? No Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon.
JULIA: Oh, I’m so close, Amanda.
AMANDA: You’re so close, Julia. It should have been. I mean, just six-eyes, Oh, yeah. I guess it'd be six eyes. I think that's too many that would that would do– Anyway, yeah.
JULIA: That's what King Ghidorah has, though. He has six eyes. Naturally, in his given state.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: He doesn’t have level up like Blue-Eyes does.
AMANDA: Yeah, you don’t have to level him up, he's ready to go.
JULIA: Alright, Amanda, that leaves Smaug versus Toothless in our Semi Final Round.
AMANDA: Listen, this one's tough. I think it's going to be Smaug. Because a dragon that can talk to you, scarier than ones who can't.
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: And I expect we'll get down to Smaug and the Game of Thrones dragons against each other at a certain point here. We will address that when it comes to it. But the fact that the dragon can talk back makes it so much scarier. And Toothless, I know sweet, communicates chirps does his own little thing. I am super going to watch this franchise.,I promise. I bet Toothless was great, and that's my answer.
JULIA: Okay, smug it is and then Amanda that is the Game of Thrones dragons versus King Ghidorah
AMANDA: So I think the Game of Thrones dragons as a you know, cinematic TV movie artifact have a lot to thank King Ghidorah for but they are going to take over here.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Because like we opened with like, to me, dragons and the myth of them loom large over society and over the stories in which they're, you know, taking part. And there is nothing like the threat of those dragons and how their reemergence changes the political landscape of the world. And that's the thing that I think is most compelling about them, especially because they're they're juvenile in the series. They're not even kind of to their full potential.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And yet the like spectrum and the fact of them, the threat of them is so present. And the whole thing with kaiju movies is like this is fine, the kaijus are here. And I find that inherently a bit less interesting, though. I really respect the place that they've had in the shaping force they've had over the entertainment that I consume today.
JULIA: Yeah, I think King Ghidorah is like a really cool and interesting character. But I have to agree with you in that the Game of Thrones dragons in current society are telling a slightly more interesting story.
AMANDA: And listen, we can't get there without King Ghidorah in the kaiju movies.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like he is the king. And here in Game of Thrones, the dragons function as tools of a queen and would be queen, a self-style Queen, and I think that is a little bit more nuanced, a little more interesting.
JULIA: Yeah. Alright, Amanda, that leads us then to our finale! And it's going to be Smaug versus the Game of Thrones dragons.
AMANDA: [sighs] What do you think?
JULIA: [sighs] I think it's a really difficult choice because like we've been saying this entire time Smaug is the like, predecessor. Smaug is the dragon that so many dragons in pop culture are based off of today, right? But then you have the Game of Thrones dragons, which were a phenomenon, they were a movement in culture and the way that they are used in both the TV shows and the books is a fascinating commentary on power and how it is used, right? And I say all those things and I still can't come to a decision.
AMANDA: How do people talk about Smaug, in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?
JULIA: He is described by one of the characters as again, a most specially greedy, strong and wicked wyrm, and he is described as the greatest of the dragons of his day.
AMANDA: Is he [55:38]? Is he known to people? Do people know he's in there? Do they know about the hoard? Or is it kind of like, ah, yes, we've heard tale like he could be out there somewhere.
JULIA: He is definitely known because Lake Town, which is the closest village to the Lonely Mountain, is built on the water so that it is not burned down when the dragon emerges from his hoard.
AMANDA: I see. So then, Julia, I think, listen, it’s a new millennium, it's a new day. None of the people involved in any of these series or pop culture properties are particularly [56:12] or worthy of venerating. But I think that an old dragon on the decline has got to lose to some fresh new dragons on the cover.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: I think ultimately, that is what is going to seal it for me that I think that perhaps contradicting myself from earlier in the episode, I think the Game of Thrones dragons hit my brain, right as a person who cares a lot about infrastructure and world building and particularly seeing, I'm gonna say it again, like it is so it is so interesting how they are used and discussed in House the Dragon versus Game of Thrones. Neither series handles women characters well, or their plot lines.
JULIA: Which I think is the point of the new series. But yes, go on, go off.
AMANDA: Yeah, they are trying to handle it, and I still think kind of fumbled the ball a little bit. JULIA: Yeah, no, it's still– it's still not great.
AMANDA: We are left to kind of draw our own metaphors around fertility, eggs, bloodlines. Like there's a lot here of like, you know, things that are kind of subsumed for political power. There's a lot there that I think we can think and talk about. And I think it's really interesting and makes me think, and Smaug as the like, prototypical example of the you know, the dragon hoarder, and the, you know, old timey Dragon, living with his hoard in a mountain there to steal with we're trying to trick. It's just less interesting to me than a kind of political dynasty with tools that no one else has. So that's what's gonna rule the day for me.
JULIA: Alright. So it is going to be Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal as our best dragons in modern pop culture.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: There we go.
AMANDA: They're hot, Julia, they're hot right now. They're circling around.
JULIA: I have to say this was close to like the final four that I thought was going to end up happening here. So I'm very happy with the results. I think that it's going to be a very interesting conversation and I encourage people to share their brackets with us, you will be able to find a version of our bracket that you can fill out on your own time on our social media pages on Twitter and on Instagram.
AMANDA: Or @SpiritsPodcast. Julia, thank you for putting this together. Multitude colleagues, thank you for your excellent suggestions.
JULIA: Thank you for your very compelling arguments, Amanda.
AMANDA: You know I am but one humble woman with a binder full of dusty Yu-Gi-Oh! cards, trying to make a decisive decision here on this podcast.
JULIA: RIP to Blue-Eyes White Dragon
AMANDA: RIP Dragon Tales. RIP Toothless.
JULIA: RIP Dragon Tales. Oh, boy.
AMANDA: And uh, sorry, Rowan. I know Toothless is your fave. We love him. No question. All the dragons here in this bracket are worthy of their place. So yeah, let us know. Tag us in your brackets, take a picture and then upload it. We're @SpiritsPodcast and remember–
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JULIA: Ride those dragons! Weeee!
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KM