Episode 362: The Boogeyman
/There’s monsters that our parents warned us about, mostly because if they just told us to do something, we wouldn’t listen: Boogeymen! We go through some of the original boogeymen, where they came from, and how they’ve transformed over the years. And don’t worry, we make up some original boogeymen that you can pass down to future generations!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of injury, death, child death, child endangerment, drowning, animal attacks, teeth, cannibalism, kidnapping, animal death, bugs, body horror, and human trafficking.
Housekeeping
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And Julia, this episode, it's like— it's kind of creeping up behind me, like, just out the fields of my vision, and it's trying to teach me some kind of moral about how to, like, stay safe in the world.
JULIA: Ahh! Ahh!
AMANDA: It's the Boogeyman.
JULIA: It's the Boogeyman. Yes, Amanda, this week, we are talking about the Boogeyman or the Bogeyman. But because we're from the US, we're probably gonna say Boogeyman for most of this episode. But when we're talking about the Boogeyman or the Bogeyman, we are talking about these spirits, or monsters, who's basically, as you summed up so beautifully, main job is to scare children into good behavior.
AMANDA: This is something that we have talked about a bunch on the show. One of my favorite examples of this trope so far has been the story of Leah Lemm relayed at the end of our episode about Paul Bunyan—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —and all of the indigenous folklore and ways of knowing that she grew up with. All of which are technology to help keep kids safe and impart, you know, important lessons.
JULIA: Yes. And I think that is a very much a global phenomenon. So when we're talking about, like, using stories to teach lessons to children, that is something that you can find across the world in various different cultures and stuff like that. The interesting part about the— the Boogeys or the bogeys is whether it is like being on time or not going places they aren't supposed to go. The Boogeyman is designed to, like, use fear to get children to act a certain way. But what we're talking about today is, like, it comes in vary— various names. We're talking about Boogeyman. We're talking about nursery bogeys, nursery sprites, and even bugbears. Now, these are, like—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —very specific to when we're talking about these specific phrases like the Boogeyman, the bogeys, the nursery sprites, the bug bears. These are very specific to both like England, the British Isles, and North America, specifically the United States. So I am very excited to kind of dig into those specific stories and these figures. But, Amanda, when you were growing up, did you have any kind of Boogeyman that your parents told you about or used to scare you into good behavior?
AMANDA: You know, I don't think I needed any guilt apart from real-life consequences for my actions.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: The closest we came was a sort of proto Elf on the Shelf named Bartleby, who watched us between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and was evidenced by, like, a moving, you know, ornament or, you know, thing in the corner of your eye, and will report back if you were bad to Santa.
JULIA: Still can't believe that your mom invented the Elf on a Shelf, before Elf on the Shelf. Truly wild to me.
AMANDA: I saw people manufacturing it and I'm like, "How— how'd they know about Barnaby?" Barnaby, not Bartleby. Bartleby is Melville's short story about anti-capitalist protests.
JULIA: Amanda, you also had a fear of your basement steps if I remember correctly, too, which I think will—
AMANDA: I did.
JULIA: —become somewhat relevant as we start to tell stories of the various Boogeys and bogeys.
AMANDA: Oh. Yeah, I didn't even put those two together. But you know what? It is dangerous to walk down the basement steps without a light on.
JULIA: Exactly.
AMANDA: So that is good. Yeah, just a— a general of the dark— I think, like, more sort of put-together images I saw from pop culture with like—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —my grandma's house had some of those sort of, like, storage cabinets under the eaves of the roof. So it's like, you know, in like the sloped roof then the— then the sort of like corner of the triangle that was a storage cabinet—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —and they were dark and boogey. And so when I would sleep in the bed right next to those cabinets, I was like, "Oh, I hope nothing happens in there."
JULIA: It would also be dangerous for you as a small child to go into those and potentially get, like, locked in them or if they're like unfinished, you know, stepping on a— a roofing nail or something like that. So—
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: —there is— there's like purpose behind the stories that either we were telling ourselves— or, you know, our parents were telling us or our guardians were telling us.
AMANDA: Well, maybe we'll unlock some memories as we go through the episode, but I'm excited to learn.
JULIA: Yes. So, Amanda, somewhat unsurprisingly, there are a lot of different types of these creatures with a lot of different names. But for the most part, what our modern understanding of the Bogeys are— is— like I mentioned before, is like very much a British tradition. So we— we tend to divide them into two different categories. There are general scare tactics, which is like if you don't behave, then you're going to get snatched up by the boogeyman, right? Or it is a response to specific threats which is like, keep away from the mines or else Bloody Bones will get you.
AMANDA: Oh, boy. I mean, yes, kids should not walk around in mines.
JULIA: I know.
AMANDA: No one should arguably.
JULIA: They— they shouldn't, for sure.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So, at the end of the day, though, the bogeys are mainly one thing. They are these creatures that snatch up children and steal them away from their families.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: To what end? Depends on the creature. But a lot of times, it's just like, you're gonna get it if you don't do the right thing.
AMANDA: And it is, yeah, to be taken away from everything you know.
JULIA: Exactly. So many of the stories that we have of Bogeys in general seem to, for the most part, had been collected by a British folklorist and writer named Katharine Mary Briggs, who wrote a four-volume dictionary of British folk tales in the English language.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: And in general, wrote many books about fairies and folklore, and was even the president of The Folklore Society for several years.
AMANDA: Right on. Go, Katharine. I love— someone's like, "Hey, Katharine, like what do you do?" She's like, "I study the Boogeyman." But no, talking about fairy tales in general, that makes sense.
JULIA: But most relevant to us for this episode, if people want to read Katharine Mary Briggs' work is the Encyclopedia of Fairies: Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures.
AMANDA: Alright. I'm not gonna lie, if I saw that on the shelf, I would just buy it right away sight unseen, no questions asked.
JULIA: Yeah. Pick it up at your local library, check it out. It's a— it's a— it's a good read. So according to Katharine Mary Briggs' Encyclopedia of Fairies, I'm not going to read the whole title, a nursery Bogey is, quote, "A group of spirits that seem as if they had never been feared by grown-up people, but had been invented expressly to warn children off dangerous ground or from undesirable activities. Some of them were used in threats and others with special function as to protect fruit and nut trees, or to frighten children from dangerous water. All of these, however revolting they might be, no doubt played a useful part in inducing children to be cautious. But no one over the age of 10 would be likely to believe them. They were in a class in themselves."
AMANDA: That's so interesting. I mean, now that she says it, of course, that's a class of its own. And I'm already thinking, A, because it's very English, but B, because it really trades in some of these tropes of Roald Dahl books—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —which were, you know, aimed at kids and I think also, you know, played with some of these tropes around, you know, the big fruit, the witches, the, you know, candy that would change your size and all the bad things that could happen if you, you know, kind of followed that invitation to adventure and went off on your own.
JULIA: Yes. And I mean, we're talking about Roald Dahl, like looking at Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, for example, is very much just— it's like if you are rude, or bad, or do not do the right thing, bad things will happen to you. And it's seen as a good thing, you know, in that regard, where it's like instead of it being a Boogeyman, Willy Wonka is very much like this sort of, like, magical trickster spirit.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But— and we're supposed to like him. But in this case, you know—
AMANDA: Now that I think about it, maybe it's also about reaching above your social class, but I can analyze that another time.
JULIA: Yeah. No. I mean, like the— the nice, polite, poor kid ends up winning the— the factory—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —so I think it all ends up fine for him.
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: Amanda, I know we love etymology here on the podcast, so you're probably wondering where we get Bugge or Bogge from.
AMANDA: Oh, I am. I'm gonna assume it's because kids are really snotty, just always boogers.
JULIA: Nope. Nope. In terms of describing a monster, we get the word from the Middle English bugge or bogge spelled B-U-G-G-E or B-O-G-G-E. So, basically, we can translate that to frightening specter.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So this is very likely— that these words also can be translated to terror, or even scarecrow.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Which at least for me, is very fun. Like the idea of a Boogeyman who's also a scarecrow is— is delightful.
AMANDA: I— I will say I— I did get jump scared a couple of weeks ago in the lead up to Halloween, one of the, like, florists in our neighborhood set up a little scarecrow, and I turned to the corner, and was like, I thought it was a person, but it's not.
JULIA: I was picking up food for myself and Jake, and he had band practice last night, so I was picking up for everyone. And I went to the taco place that we ordered from, and then turned around to leave, and there was, like, a big skeleton that was, like, dressed in, like, a sombrero and had a guitar, and I was like, "Huh. Okay. You're not a person. That's fine." And then just left and tried not to embarrass myself on the way out.
AMANDA: Yeah, as long as no one sees you, it's like it didn't happen.
JULIA: Luckily, there was no one else in the restaurant besides the workers, so at least they got a good laugh of it. But, like, otherwise, I was fine.
AMANDA: Yeah, I'm sure they see it 20 times a day.
JULIA: So these words, the Bugge or the Bogge, this is where we get kind of the iteration of the Bogey, which is the Bugbear which comes from the— the word Buggy and—
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: —combines it with bear. But specifically, not just like a bear, a demonic form of a bear that supposedly eats children.
AMANDA: Oh. Okay.
JULIA: Yeah, because that was definitely like a thing in the British Isles at the time. It was like— this idea of like, "Ooh, a bear spirit that would potentially, like, eat kids." You know?
AMANDA: A werebear.
JULIA: Werebear, werebear. Or dire bear, I guess, too, like the idea of like—
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: —this like bigger than bear, bear.
AMANDA: Forest creatures of old, I get it. I mean, me now just want to cuddle them. That— that seems ideal. I'm trying to turn my house slowly into a bear den, but that's just me.
JULIA: You know, like, if— if bears are so bad, then why are their ears shaped like that? They're cute.
AMANDA: That's something I ask myself every time I see that meme, it's like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —yeah, these are the hard questions.
JULIA: Yeah. Like, why would they look so fuzzy and, like, kissable if I can't—
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: —get that close to a bear?
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: It's not fair.
AMANDA: Not fair.
JULIA: It's not fair. So we also get the word bugaboo, which has similar meanings to both bogey and bugbear, which kind of arises as a alternative version to the bugbear. But all in all, from their early usage, they, in general, have meant an object of dread of some kind. Like, they have always come from a word that means like, "This thing's bad."
AMANDA: That's so interesting, Julia, because I— you know, lover of etymology here, lover of words, I will often hear people describe things like, "Oh, that's a real bugbear." Like, that's really just kind of, like, sticking in my craw. It's really like on my mind. And now that you say it, like it makes all the sense in the world that the answer is, "Oh, it's like a— something that causes you anxiety, something you dread, something you don't want to deal with." And that— makes that phrase makes so much more sense to me.
JULIA: Is it language wild? Isn't it so cool?
AMANDA: Language is so fun.
JULIA: So we, Amanda, in general used Bogey, nursery Bogey, that kind of thing, before we started using the idea of the Bogeyman or the Boogeyman for our United States listeners. It is this kind of like natural next step once individual Bogeys in general started merging together and then melding into this single, more general uniform entity. So this change probably happened around mostly the early 20th century, as a lot more of these, like, generalized Bogeys begin to be rolled into the Boogeyman as we understand him. And this sort of general Boogeyman is often a monstrous male figure, usually with sharp claws, sometimes sharp teeth as well. And like his predecessors, who we'll talk about in a little bit, he carries children away, sometimes in a bag, sometimes not.
AMANDA: Hmm. Interesting.
JULIA: Let's talk about some of these predecessors, because we can kind of see where the individual bits of this Bogeyman or Boogeyman come from. And as we go through these, Amanda, I want you to rate them out of five in two categories, if you will.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: First, how successful you think this Bogey is at keeping children from doing the thing that they're being warned about?
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: And then number two, how likely you were to be scared of this Bogey, if you were a child that was being told the story?
AMANDA: Okay, okay. So kids generally and then Amanda, the child, I can do that.
JULIA: So, let's start first with perhaps one of the oldest British named Bogeys that we have on record, and that is Jenny Greenteeth.
AMANDA: Jenny Greenteeth?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Is she going to make your teeth green?
JULIA: That's a great question, Amanda. The answer is kinda.
AMANDA: Okay. Let's go.
JULIA: So there are a couple of different versions of Jenny Greenteeth with different names, also was sometimes referred to as the grindylow, which you might recognize.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: And also, Nell Longarms.
AMANDA: Nell Long— okay. Are you making this up, Julia?
JULIA: I'm not.
AMANDA: Because this sounds like some English country shit.
JULIA: It is. It is. I'm not making it up.
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
JULIA: It is just English country shit. In general, Jenny Greenteeth is used to keep children away from bodies of water where they might drown, often specifically ponds.
AMANDA: Julia, I didn't need the Bogeyman, because I had my Uncle Martin would drown in a well.
JULIA: But before Uncle Martin drowned in a well, he probably heard a story and then did not respond to it.
AMANDA: Didn't listen to it.
JULIA: About someone like Jenny Greenteeth.
AMANDA: That's true, that's true.
JULIA: Mainly, Jenny Greenteeth derived from Lancashire, Cheshire, and Shropshire. And the story would go that children were told that if they went near pools of water, the water spirit of Jenny or sometimes Ginny Greenteeth would catch them. And not only was she found in the waters, Amanda, ready to snatch up unexpecting children, but she—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —was also said to lurk in the treetops around ponds, and that her moans could be heard at night from the treetops.
AMANDA: Okay. Because a— you know, we—we love a water spirit. Alright, that's why we made a color-changing water Spirit mug by the way that you can buy—
JULIA: We do have it.
AMANDA: —at spiritspodcast.com/merch. But someone lurking in the water, alright, we get it. But I love this technology as a way to be like— not like— I could see a kid standing, you know two feet away from the water being like, "Hmm, hmm. I'm not into the water. She can't reach me here." But you can still slip and fall.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Like, there's, you know, there's a radius of danger that children trying to follow the letter of the law may not recognize. So I love that she could drop down from the treetop, too.
JULIA: Amanda, you're like totally right, and I think it's going to become clear as to why— not only—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —the, like, tempting fate of children is, like, something that is very much addressed to this story.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So according to folklorist Charlotte Burne, Jenny Greenteeth was, quote, "An old woman who lurks beneath the green weeds that cover stagnant ponds. And children were warned that if they ventured to near such places, she will stretch out her long arms and drag them to her."
AMANDA: Oh, no. Hence, Nelly Longarms.
JULIA: Hence, Nelly Longarms. Hence, the idea of like, "Ooh. I'm— I'm not— you know, I'm not in the pond." You're like, "Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, small child."
AMANDA: Close enough. And I mean, I'm sure we'll get into this too, but, you know, society finds old people out of a domestic space especially and like outside the sort of, like, safe confines of younger family, right? Like, we— we other— the elderly in a lot of ways, and especially old women, especially old women without kids. Like, there's a reason that the witch trope is what it is. I am going to just say like, "That's there, however, and also sounds fucking awesome. This sounds great."
JULIA: She was also described as, quote, "Having pale green skin, green teeth, very long green locks of hair, long green fingers with long nails. And she was very thin with a pointed chin and very big eyes.
AMANDA: Wow. Do you know the Green Lady of Brooklyn, Julia?
JULIA: I don't know the Green Lady of Brooklyn.
AMANDA: If you want to go ahead and pull her up right now, she's a lovely old lady who lives in Brooklyn wears only lime green, and her entire house, lime green.
JULIA: Oh, yes. I've seen her. I love her. Elizabeth Sweetheart is her name.
AMANDA: Yep. She's a real sweetie, and her husband wears mostly but not only green, and we love her.
JULIA: She's the modern-day Ginny Greenteeth, Jenny Greenteeth without the child-killing, probably.
AMANDA: The kid snatching, munching, et cetera.
JULIA: I can't— I can't speak to her. I— I assume she's a sweet old lady, but I'm not gonna get milkshake duck by this old lady. There are other stories— I love these descriptions, but there are other stories that say that she has no form at all because—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —she has never seen above the surface of a pond, which is, like, definitely scarier in some ways.
AMANDA: Yes. Yeah. No, the— the creature that only your mind's eye can kind of conjure the form is— is scary, for sure.
JULIA: And then, Amanda, because you asked if she would give you green teeth, not only was she used to have children avoid areas where they could drown, she was also used to promote good hygiene. Because in some stories—
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: —it was said that if a child did not keep their teeth clean, they might be dragged into one of the ponds by Jenny Greenteeth, which also makes sense given her name.
AMANDA: That is truly incredible. Once again, me as a child, I did not need to be scared by Jenny, because my parents just told me, "These are the only teeth you get. More don't grow." And I was like, "What? Like, that's messed up."
JULIA: I mean, that's only true after your baby teeth fall out, so—
AMANDA: As— yeah. So as the— as the real ones came in, they were like, "Take good care of that because you don't get to replace them." And I'm like, "Holy shit. What?"
JULIA: I mean, you can, but not with real teeth.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: So it's really interesting because I— her name, in general, and her description associates her with basically, like, the thick algae and duckweed that covers stagnant bodies of water.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And quote, "The horror consisted in the way that this weed would close over anything that fell into it. So again, we're— we're kind of talking about this, like, being like, yes, she's in the trees. Yes, she has long arms. And, like, you don't have to necessarily go into the pond to, like, be got by her. And I think a big portion of that is because a lot of the stagnant ponds are covered in this, like, algae or duckweed that looks as though it's like continuation of grass—
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: —and, like, the continuation of the shore, but in fact, it's like easy for a child to think that it's grass and then stumble into the pond and drown.
AMANDA: I think you're totally right. That is— you know, this is not like a clearly demarcated swimming hole that you can just, like, jump into from the green lawn.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And, you know, you're in the pond. Like falling, being unexpected, not knowing where the grass is, and where the, you know, the ground starts and the water starts, like there is a permeable boundary covered in reeds and weeds just like you're saying. So I think this is a highly, technologically advanced myth.
JULIA: How do we feel on the rating for Jenny Greenteeth?
AMANDA: Yeah, this is gonna be a five out of five. I— I love the utility. I love the image of her. I love the idea that I can look at myself a little sideways on my little teethies in the mirror and be like, "Oh, no plaque. Ahh!" And then, like, really get committed to brushing my teeth. I will say that this probably wouldn't have scared me. My mom was a lifeguard and raised—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —us all to be pretty fearless swimmers. And like I said, I— I already have the inbuilt family desire not to be another McLoughlin, what, die in a well. So I'm gonna say this— this would have scared me like a— like a two out of five just for the— just for the teeth.
JULIA: It was a well?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: What? Alright.
AMANDA: Wells, ponds, all kinds of things.
JULIA: Ponds make sense to me. Well, I'm like you fell in there, and that's— that's about it, right?
AMANDA: If someone digs it, and then they take away the stones, and then it's like—
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: —semi-covered.
JULIA: An abandoned well, that's a different story.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: For sure. I think Jenny Greenteeth is perhaps the most, like, logical one that we're going to talk about in these episodes, and like, you know, make sense to have someone be like, "Don't go near that water. This— this thing will get to you." Right? But there are a lot of other ones that are just, like, general like, "Don't go out at night." Or—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "—Listen to your parents," kind of thing. And we're gonna get into those now.
AMANDA: And I gotta tell you, Julia, before today, I really thought that those were limited to, like, post-1980s kidnapper scare tactics. Because, like, growing up those were the stories, right? But, like, of course, it predates the '80s, of course.
JULIA: So we're also going to talk about the Hobyah, which mainly targeted children who did not heed to their parents or were like generally unaware of their surroundings.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Which sounds like a recipe for anxiety for me at least, but—
AMANDA: I'm tagged in this photo and I don't like it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. So the Hobyah are these kind of like terrifying cannibal spirits that trap children and then carry them away in a sack to be devoured.
AMANDA: Oh, great. Okay.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. The Hobyah, fortunately for most children, is afraid of black dogs because of an English story where the Hobyahs attempted to eat up a man, a woman, and their daughter, but the dog managed to scare them away every night that they would come for the kid, right? However, the man didn't know that the Hobyah were trying to get them, but the dog did and he became frustrated with the dogs constant barking.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Not realizing it was keeping the— the evil spirits at bay and so kicks the dog out.
AMANDA: No. That good puppy is trying to save you.
JULIA: It's sad. Yes. There— there's a darker version where he, like, cuts up the dog too, but we're— we're not gonna talk about that.
AMANDA: Sure, sure. No.
JULIA: So the Hobyahs then in the night steal the little girl away to their lair in the sack that they— they use.
AMANDA: Always a sack with these people.
JULIA: It's always a sack. But the man manages to hear her cries while the Hobyahs are sleeping, steals her back, replaces the daughter in the bag with the dog while the Hobyahs are sleeping. And then when they wake up and want to go eat the little girl, the dog jumps out and devours all the Hobyahs.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: It's a very, like, classic English, like, folktale about spirits that humans managed to trick.
AMANDA: Despite being tricked themselves the first round.
JULIA: Exactly. But in general, like the Hobyahs are very much, like, cannibal spirits that steal away children in the night. That's it. That's like— that's the basic premise that's there, and they're scared of dogs. So if you have a dog, you're all set.
AMANDA: I do like the implication that creatures are smarter than us and only by collaborating with the creatures and, like, nearly dying, can humans kind of catch up.
JULIA: How do we feel about the Hobyahs? Like, not a big description. They're a little like vague, very, like, general Boogeyman-ish—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —except for the fear of dogs. But, like, how would you feel hearing that story as a child?
AMANDA: Yeah. For me, that would have been like a four out of five effectiveness—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —because hearing dogs barking, I'd be like, "Oh, like, is that— is that what they're trying to warn me against?" And because I was very allergic to dogs, I'm not allowed to be around them. I— I like idolized them and wanted to be around them so bad. So that's a four out of five. I think the general scare tactic, I'm gonna go like a two out of five. It's sort of—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —lurking in the background. I find it effective when there's something really specific to grab onto. So I'd say a little more effective for young me than average.
JULIA: I think it's also interesting if we're talking about, like, the effectiveness of it and the fact that the Hobyahs, like, steal away, in general, like, children that aren't paying too much attention. The idea of like if your dog is acting weird, you should pay attention to that. I think is a good general like statement or piece of advice.
AMANDA: That's very true. Might be carbon monoxide.
JULIA: Could be. Could be. You never know.
AMANDA: Get a detector.
JULIA: You should. You should have a detector in your house, please, please, please.
AMANDA: You should unplug your toaster when you're not home and you should get a carbon monoxide detector. That's just common sense.
JULIA: And I think they have, like, five-year lifecycle, so if you are like living in an apartment and you don't know when that was put in, maybe change it out. I don't know.
AMANDA: Change it out.
JULIA: Just a suggestion. Yeah.
AMANDA: It's like 15 bucks at the hardware store. It's— you can do it.
JULIA: If you go to the hardware store, they sell the 10-year, like, carbon monoxide and fire alarms that you should put up in your household.
AMANDA: It's the combination of Pizza Hut and Taco Bell of personal safety.
JULIA: It is. It is, indeed. Alright Amanda, so children in general are afraid of the dark, right?
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: But if they weren't, parents might warn them not to go out after dark because they might get stolen away by Black Annis.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Also known as Black Anna, Black Agnes, Black Annie, and Cat Anna.
AMANDA: Surprised at the number of women so far.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of ladies in this situation.
AMANDA: I guess I just sort of assumed this, like, male kidnapper would be the— the main thing here but, you know, the English do love to make old ladies the butt of sort of jokes in stories.
JULIA: I will say also like if you're thinking about the period of time where we start kind of seeing Bogeys written down, if not like— it predating that, but this is the first, like, written records we're getting of it. A lot of these start in the mid-1500s.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So again, this is a period as we talked about in our Black Cat episode where it's very much like witchcraft is the devil—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —focused on that kind of stuff. So there is a lot of women being singled out for being witches and whatnot. So, like, this is a period of time where we're, like, in particular targeting women for not fitting expectations. So it does make sense that a lot of these are female spirits or female monsters.
AMANDA: Good point. Good point.
JULIA: And that does change over time, as we talked about kind of like the Boogeyman becomes more of a male figure, but these early ones, a lot of ladies.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: So Black Annis is said to be in the Dane Hills of Leicestershire. According to our girl, Katharine Briggs, she is, quote, "A cannibal hag with a blue face and iron claws. She dwells in a cave and wears a skirt sewn from the skins of her human prey."
AMANDA: Oh, damn. I'm not sure what kind of leather human skin makes, but it seems like there are easier ways.
JULIA: Human leather, baby.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: There was a great oak at the mouth of the cave in which she was said to leap out, catch, and devour stray children and lambs. The cave was supposed to have been dug out of the rock by her own nails.
AMANDA: Oh. Alright. The— the claws, I get.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Old people's hands look very different to my child hands, even though one day, you know, my lifespan being long, they'll turn into those. So that I get, nails get gnarled over time. Okay. How did her face get blue? That's my main question.
JULIA: Who can say? It's— it's probably just the same way that Jenny Greenteeth got those green teeth. Just monsters.
AMANDA: But the green teeth, there's chlorophyll. That, I understand.
JULIA: That's true. That's correct.
AMANDA: And in algae water, maybe mold grows. Maybe a tanning byproduct of the human skin skirt, that's my guess.
JULIA: Or maybe she spent so much time in caves, so pale.
AMANDA: Oh, what, like reflects blue?
JULIA: Skin looks blue.
AMANDA: I see. Alright.
JULIA: And as I mentioned, she doesn't just steal children, but also livestock. So if a shepherd was to lose a sheep or a lamb, he might blame Black Annis for stealing it away in the night.
AMANDA: That's fair. Certainly, not any of the natural predators of lambs live in England, but this is much better than being like, "Sorry, boss, I lost one."
JULIA: That's— you know what? I walked past that big old tree by the mouth of that cave. I fucked up. That's on me.
AMANDA: That's on me. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: There are also, Amanda, you're gonna get a kick out of this one, a variety of bogeys that are specifically warning children about eating things that they find in the wild or that they shouldn't.
AMANDA: Oh, good. Yes. This is excellent. Lot of nursery rhymes I grew up with about what leaves are safe and what berries are safe, so I'm stoked to hear the English versions of this.
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, let me tell you about Melsh Dick—
AMANDA: Ah!
JULIA: —who, for example, warns children about eating unsanctioned nuts.
AMANDA: England loves to use the word dick, simply to mean Richard.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Is this intentional?
JULIA: Yeah. So I don't know, but unsanctioned nuts does remind me of a Chuck Tingle novel, so now I'm just going to be thinking about that for the rest of my life.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, Melsh Dick is, quote, "The wood demon."
AMANDA: Sure. Sure. No, this has to be intentional. Okay.
JULIA: "Who protects the unripe nuts from children in the West Riding of Yorkshire."
AMANDA: If you are a farmer or cultivate trees, I understand that they are valuable and you want to make sure they— they ripen all the way. I don't know what kids are walking around, like, excitedly scouring trees for nuts, but maybe that's just me growing up in a post-industrialized capitalist society where I can have like, I don't know, Peppermint Patties instead of unripe walnuts or something.
JULIA: Well, you know the thing is too, Amanda, like I— I was a child that loved wandering through the woods.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And if I saw, like, berries that I knew we're safe, which we'll get to, I— I would eat those berries—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —you know, but—
AMANDA: But that's— that's, like, sweet.
JULIA: —you know, those are in the woods.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: You know?
AMANDA: I don't know.
JULIA: And easy to eat. But, like, I feel like, you know, if you bring like a bunch of nuts home and you roast them on the fire, you crack them open, like that's a good time, I get it.
AMANDA: Okay. I mean, it's nutritious, certainly. Okay, alright. Sorry. I'm getting— I'm getting all mixed up in the practicalities of this nut demon.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, Melsh Dick is not the only nut demon out there.
AMANDA: Tough.
JULIA: I can't—
AMANDA: You said Melsh Dick three times—
JULIA: It's so silly.
AMANDA: —and that just broke you.
JULIA: I know. And now I summon him. So through most of the North Country is a female spirit who's called Churn Milk Peg.
AMANDA: Churn Milk Peg?
JULIA: Yes. And she's the one who, in the North Country, protects the unripe nuts from children.
AMANDA: Churn Milk— okay. So I mean, these are all, like, shortened servant names also, Peg and Jenny, things like that.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: A lot of—a lot of class differences here. Does she, like, protect the milk from going bad and, like, from the butter from curdling and stuff like that?
JULIA: Oh, no. It's— it's just nuts.
AMANDA: Just nuts?
JULIA: Just nuts, baby. Yeah,
AMANDA: Damn. I mean, listen, highly nutritious. Like, those are the most, like, calories per ounce that you can get. Totally understand, important crop, probably expensive.
JULIA: So, I will say— it notes here that the importance of nut thickets in early rural economy may be judged by the number of supernatural beliefs surrounding them such as the appearance of the Devil to Sunday nut gatherers and the fertility values ascribed to nuts. Amanda, how do you feel about Melsh Dick?
AMANDA: I'm too shaken by these names. No, I— I think this is incredibly funny. I love agriculture and agricultural economics, agronomics, actually, they're called. I am very excited and gonna give all of these—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —a five out of five minus one to Melsh Dick for making Julia say that phrase, and now me, so many times.
JULIA: Now, similarly to Melsh Dick and Churn Milk Peg is the Gooseberry Wife.
AMANDA: Oh, okay.
JULIA: So she's specifically known on the Isle of Wight.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And takes the form of, get ready for this, an enormous hairy caterpillar—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —who guards the gooseberry bushes from children who might eat them without permission.
AMANDA: Oh. Love her. Whose wife is she?
JULIA: Uh-hmm. The wife of the gooseberries.
AMANDA: Wow. So cute. I love a big caterpillar.
JULIA: I find the Gooseberry Wife interesting, because if I saw a giant hairy caterpillar, I think I would be terrified of that.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Like the idea of a small caterpillar, great. Idea of like a dog-sized caterpillar, kind of— still somewhat cute, you know?
AMANDA: Somewhat cute. That's true.
JULIA: But like a giant one, like elephant-sized perhaps, very scary.
AMANDA: So much mass, those— those hairs are so big.
JULIA: Angulating as it moves across the— like, with all of its tiny, like not—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —feet. Absolutely not. Not a fan.
AMANDA: I don't like that. I do like gooseberries, and I do appreciate something is needed to stop the children from taking them all.
JULIA: Yeah. Those children, they want those gooseberries, and I do not blame them.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Finally, in the same vein of protecting food from children in the wild, is Lazy Lawrence, who is—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —the guardian of the orchard in Hampshire and Somerset.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Sometimes he takes the form of a man, afflicting thieves with cramped feet and tripping when they try to flee the orchard.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: But in other versions, he takes the form of a horse, specifically a colt, and chases thieves out before they can take anything.
AMANDA: Why is he lazy, then?
JULIA: I don't know, because he does a lot of chasing, so—
AMANDA: I was gonna say. He's not, like, falling asleep on the job and you can sneak past him to go take the fruit.
JULIA: And well, that might be one of the case. I don't have that in my notes or anything like that. Maybe Lazy Lawrence is not particularly good at guarding the orchards, but there is a threat of, like, either cramped feet, twisted ankles, or being chased by a horse.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or maybe— maybe he's, like, lazy until you piss him off, you know? Or like lazy by constitution, but he will, like, do his job if you make him.
JULIA: Big same, big same. Now, we've got a couple more Bogeys to talk about. But before we get to them, Amanda, I am gonna need a refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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AMANDA: Hey, everybody, it's Amanda, and welcome to the refill. Welcome, especially to our newest patrons Hadley and Mila. We're so happy you're here. We really, really appreciate that you choose to support this podcast with your dollars every month. And thank you, too, to supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And those legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Now, folks, this is getting into the end of the year. We know it's still spooky season in our hearts, okay? But it is deal season for the rest of the internet. And I want to let you know that this week, the week of November 13th, our merch is on sale. Plus, our merch provider is offering free shipping for everything over 50 bucks in the US, and they have a fairly affordable international shipping for those non-US folks as well. So go on over, check it out. If you haven't gotten our color-changing water Spirit mug or any of the other incredible merch we have made recently, including bath bombs. Listen, if you want more bath bombs, you got to buy these bath bombs and tell us you want them. It's at spiritspodcast.com/merch. Now, we usually recommend a piece of media for you to check out here in the mid-roll, but sometimes it's a— a habit, sometimes it's a feeling. Julia talks about audiobooks and other kinds of incredible stuff. And this week, I want to recommend that you start the tradition you want to see in the world, okay? My family has gone through a lot of changes over the last few years, and our traditions have kind of fallen away as people have moved, and gotten sick, and gotten older, and houses have been sold. And I am making, with my husband, the traditions we want to see in the world. We have our, I think, fourth annual Friendsgiving. We are making the Thanksgiving traditions here that we want to have and figuring out what holidays mean for us, what traditions mean for us. And whether it's something as small as going to, you know, services, going to yoga, having a certain Saturday or Sunday morning routine on your own, or doing it with someone. Saying to your friend group, "You know what, guys? We are going to do a gift exchange this year. You know what, y'all? We're going to do a cookie swap party." Whatever it might be, whatever you wish someone would make that you wish you could attend, try it. I know it's vulnerable. I know it's scary. I know that I'm going to be wondering if anyone will come to my Friendsgiving until we have it. They're gonna come, don't worry. I think that it's worth doing. And if you do, and if you want to chat about it, hit me up @shessomickey. Lots going on here a Multitude as always. There's so much cookin'. I— I can't wait to tell you all about it. But for now, I'm going to tell you about Tell Me About It. This is a game show proving that the things you like are actually interesting. Hosted by my husband, Eric Silver, and Adal Rifai from Hello From The Magic Tavern and Hey Riddle Riddle, it's excellent. Adal plays an eccentric billionaire who forces guests to come on the podcast and prove that their favorite thing is interesting and cool. I went on, Julia went on. It's been an awesome time. And Eric puts together games and challenges so that people can kind of prove that their thing is really, really cool. There have been excellent guests like Janet Varney, Jenna Stoeber, Jeffrey Cranor, Matt Young, me and Julia, other faces and voices for Multitude, and more. So check it out, Tell Me About It. It's the most fun podcast run by a multibillionaire. And that I can promise you. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, I know we're talking about the end of the year traditions, and especially changing traditions, and comparing them to how they used to be or how I wish they were, tends to put me in— in my head a lot. And that's something that I kind of struggle with. And I'm doing a bunch of things like yoga and meditation, and you know, making routines, and reminding myself to get back at my body and things like that, to ground me from getting lost in my thoughts. But therapy is a really big way that I deal with that. And if you, right now, can't access therapy in person safely or affordably, if you're thinking about starting therapy, if you're looking for a solution in between seeing other therapists, I really think that BetterHelp is a great tool for you to know about. This is where you can get therapy entirely online, convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. All you have to do to start talking with somebody is fill out a brief questionnaire and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. If this is something that will be helpful to you and you want to find your bright spot this season, try BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/spirits today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com/spirits. Guys, I had the best day yesterday because my sister visited from Hawaii where she has lived for the last five or six years, and she brought my nephew, Koda. This is not person, Koda is a pit bull, and I'm obsessed with him. I love him. He saw me, and was so excited, and yelped. He recognizes my voice from FaceTime, and I got to pet him, and hang out with him, and chill with him. He had a big sweater on, because he is a dog from Hawaii and doesn't know what this whole New York winter thing is all about. It was genuinely one of the best afternoons I can remember in a long time. I love his little face. I love his little nose. I love his little paws. He's the absolute best. And I really, really appreciate that I know that if anything were to happen to him, he knows and Bailey knows, his mom, that he can rest a little easier. She has embraced pet insurance, which means that she doesn't have to have that thing in her mind of like, "Oh, my God. Like, you know, what can I afford? Where should I go?" Blah, blah, blah. She gets to just realize that if Koda needs anything, she doesn't have to wait for the unexpected to happen. She can join, like you can, the massive community of pet owners who trust Embrace Pet Insurance to protect their pet. Head to embracepetinsurance.com/spirits and sign up for pet insurance today. Make sure you go to embracepetinsurance.com/spirits or else they won't know I sent you. That's embracepetinsurance.com/spirits and check out my Instagram for photos of Koda, okay? He's the best. And finally, we are sponsored this week by Ravensburger. Now, I told you about hanging out with Koda yesterday. Not only did I hang out with Koda, I sent Bailey back to our grandma's house with a bunch of Ravensburger Puzzles for my grandma to try. Now, she is awesome. I love her a lot. And she loves 300-piece puzzles for when she wants to do a quick one in the afternoon. She loves 500-piece puzzles for when she wants a little project she can come to over a couple of days. And sometimes she will do what she describes as quote, "A real pisser," which is a 1000-piece puzzle, which she'll put on her puzzle table and work on over the course of a week. I love it. I love it. She sends me a little photo updates. I love that we can commiserate about which ones were challenging and which ones were easy. And she and I both really appreciate the quality and color and beauty and detail that is in Ravensburger Jigsaw Puzzles. That's a huge part of my family tradition, one I'm carrying on as I, you know, start my own traditions. I bring puzzles down to my mother-in-law at Thanksgiving. It's a ton of fun, and I am truly so happy that I get to talk about jigsaw puzzles in these episodes with you. So go ahead and check out Ravensburger on Amazon and your local craft or hobby store, or anywhere that sells puzzles today, okay? You're gonna find it. You're gonna like it, Ravensburger. And now, let's get back to the show.
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JULIA: So, Amanda, I went, for this episode, for a cocktail that I really love because it is so vibrant, yet so delicious. And a lot of times, bright cocktails make people nervous, because in general, they think it means it's too sweet or it's like artificially flavored, or whatever. But I think this one is super yummy because part of the reason, I really like Midori in my cocktails. I know that might be like a hot take, but I think Midori is a really good, like, not main liquor, certainly—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —but a good, like, flavor and additional booze to add to your cocktails.
AMANDA: You're allowed.
JULIA: I know. I know. Like, this is how I like came out in favor of Blue Curacao. I think it's just fun to have blue drinks and Curacao was like not terrible unnecessarily. It's the same as like triple sec, or regular Curacao. So, like, why not use it? Why not make more things blue? That's my question.
AMANDA: You're an adult, you can do whatever you want.
JULIA: Yeah. And now I'm saying, "Hey, why not make more things melon-flavored and also bright green?"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So for this cocktail, which I'm calling The Boogeyman—
AMANDA: Gotta be.
JULIA: —it is gin, Midori, some lemon juice, and honey, and of course, a little bit of egg white for a nice froth. Like the best part about adding egg white to a cocktail is how frothy and, like, delicious, it turns out. And hey, if you're vegan, don't worry, you can use aquafaba as an alternative for the froth if you can't use egg whites, and it doesn't add too much flavor to it. And it doesn't get that like kind of— sometimes, like, using egg whites in cocktails makes the cocktail have a little bit of like a musty—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —smell almost. And aquafaba kind of avoids that. So if you're, like, a little icked out by the idea of egg whites in your cocktail. aquafaba baby.
AMANDA: Give it a go.
JULIA: That's just chickpea juice.
AMANDA: It's a seriously helpful ingredient for vegan bakers. It's incredible.
JULIA: Now, Amanda—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —with the Boogeyman cocktails in hand, I am going to have us play a little game.
AMANDA: Ooh, let's do it.
JULIA: So, Amanda, you've been learning about various, different types of bogeys and other spirits, but I want you to come up with some of your own.
AMANDA: I can do this. Alright. Old woman plus color equals Boogeyman, so I'm ready.
JULIA: Or man plus sack, plus other thing, equals Boogeyman. We know the calculation, we know the equation now, so—
AMANDA: I can do this.
JULIA: —you got this. So I am going to give you a thing that you want children not to do because it's dangerous to them—
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: —not just annoying, in general.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And I want you to, just off the dome, come up with a scary monster that will stop those children from doing that thing.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: Number one, touching a hot stove.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, of course, you don't want to get visited by Orange Olga—
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: —who is a miniature fox that lives in your walls. And when you come too close to the stove that powers her den, keeps her little den at the back of the stove all warm, she will jump out from behind the stove and bite you.
JULIA: I love Orange Olga. I want her to live in my house.
AMANDA: Right? I'd invite her in. This is great.
JULIA: I'd be like, "Hey, girl, we'll— I'll make some tea. You know, it's all good. I don't have to touch the stove, but—"
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "—we'll— we'll both be happy and you can enjoy a nice cup of tea with me."
AMANDA: Maybe—maybe instead of a fox, I just— I like the orange, that was the first animal that come to mind. It could be a salamander. Like a— a cool, like, lizard that loves the heat.
JULIA: Like a mythical salamander.
AMANDA: Yeah, like a mythical, fire-breathing one. Maybe the salamander keeps the stove lit, the oven lit, like it's the pilot light. So I— I think I'll land there. I think I'll land on— on Orange Olga, the salamander.
JULIA: Is she like lizard-sized, or is she like full human-sized, or somewhere in the middle?
AMANDA: No, I think she's lizard-sized, but if you piss her off, she will grow.
JULIA: Ooh. Love Orange Olga. Moving on to our next one. Climbing trees. Amanda, how do we stop these children from climbing trees?
AMANDA: Climbing trees. Okay. I am going to say that there is a invisible giant named Gregoryth. I'm just doing the Game of Thrones thing where you take a normal name and they had— they had a weird syllable on the end.
JULIA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
AMANDA: And he lives at the top of a hill nearby. And if you climb trees and start disturbing his view, because his view is at the treetops and higher, he will squish you with his big thumb.
JULIA: Ooh. I like that. I thought you were gonna go with, "He will pick you up and flick you across the field."
AMANDA: That's good, too. But I— I like the idea of him being like, "Meh." Like, "No." And I think having a thumb come down from on high and squish you would scare me as a child.
JULIA: I love that. It's like Bigfoot.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Fantastic. Love Gregoryth. How about number three, which is playing in the street? How do we stop those kids from playing in the street?
AMANDA: Playing in the streets.
JULIA: More modern one, definitely.
AMANDA: Yeah. I think we're going with this one is like some kind of— there's some kind of, like, pact or detente, where children are allowed to play on the sidewalk and on a strip of grass. But once you step into the street, then you're in the domain of like, I don't know, Steven, the city planner. And Steven can take you down into the sewers where his army of albino alligators, that's a real New York City myth, will eat you up. If you step foot into the street, he will suck you into the sewer, and you'll never be on the kind of right side of the Earth again.
JULIA: That's just Jake if he was a Boogeyman, and I love that for him. I want him to have a— a army of albino alligators.
AMANDA: Right? I can see like a little Ninja Turtles crossover event, but that will be too fun, and we need to keep this, you know, serious.
JULIA: We have to keep it scary, yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Alright. How about number four, which is sneaking out of the house? A real like preteen or teen one, for sure.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But don't sneak out of the house, because—
AMANDA: I think this has got to be a shifter in owl form, who the minute you open a window or door, and if you live in a place where screened windows and doors are common, if you open the screen, and somewhere— if that doesn't exist for you, such as in England, if you just open it too big that a kid could get out, not a good thing to do, but also have to sneak out, then the owl will sneak into your home and steal the breath of all your siblings and parents.
JULIA: Ooh. I thought you were gonna say, "And then replace you."
AMANDA: That's even better.
JULIA: And you have no home to come back to because—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, no, that's really good. Yeah.
JULIA: —your parents are like, "No, our— our child is in their bed right now."
AMANDA: Yeah, much better, much better.
JULIA: Or iterating off of that further and—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —combining our two things, squish them together, owl comes in, steals—
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: —the breath/memories of you from your siblings and parents. So when you return home, they're like, "You're a stranger. Get out of our house."
AMANDA: Julia, that's fucked up (appreciate it).
JULIA: Thank you.
AMANDA: Yes, that's the one. And the name of this creature is, I think— this one I'm gonna have to go not a— not a proper name, but like a moniker. This is the, ooh—
JULIA: Ooh, yellow eyes.
AMANDA: Right? No, I— I'm thinking like, yeah, the— the eraser, you know, the like soul stealer, the— you know, the legacy remover something like— these all sounds like a— like a mechanical inventions, but—
JULIA: Also cleaning products.
AMANDA: Right? Yeah. Now, let's— let's go with like—
JULIA: Breath taker or breath take— hmm, breath taker, I don't know.
AMANDA: Breath taker is really good. I was thinking the Never Born because it—
JULIA: Ooh, fuck yeah. Amanda—
AMANDA: Right?
JULIA: —nailed it.
AMANDA: It's like you were never born.
JULIA: It's like you were never born.
AMANDA: It's like you were never born. The Never Born will get in.
JULIA: It's a real Marty McFly situation. It's like you were never born.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: Alright, that one is fucking tight. I love that one so much. Alright. And then finally, Amanda, how do we stop these kids from exploring abandoned buildings?
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, the real-life legacy of the US police, that's— that's good.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But no, secondly, I think this is gotta be a— a groundskeeper and his hellhound, which are actually one creature.
JULIA: Fuck yeah.
AMANDA: And it's just, you know, a kind of like one mind, two bodies, and either Willie, the groundskeeper or the Hound will come after you.
JULIA: Amanda, can I just end this?
AMANDA: Always.
JULIA: They seem like there are two creatures and the groundskeeper has the hellhound on a leash, but—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Body—body hard tri— trigger warning.
AMANDA: It's like the leash is flesh.
JULIA: The leash is flesh.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Alright, amazing. We're so— these are great. The— I like that they went from, like, kind of cute to extremely fucked up.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. And I think you think that his name is Willie and the Hound, but it's really Willie the Hound.
JULIA: Willie the Hound.
AMANDA: And I think the Hound is the brain and the— and the flesh suit is just like a puppet.
JULIA: Oh, fuck yeah. That's cool as shit.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Alright. I— like I almost don't even want to talk about the rest of the bogeys because I'm like— I just want to like create a universe where those exist, but we have to continue. We have to continue on. So we've mainly talked about British and North American bogeys, but this French one was too good for me not to mention, Amanda.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: So this is the camacrusa, which is a disembodied leg. Sometimes described—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —as being slightly flayed.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: And it is capable of very rapid movement.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: Hides behind hay bales, and can chase—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —kill children over ditches and hedges to run down its prey.
AMANDA: Oh, God. I don't like that at all.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, if you want to avoid it, you shouldn't remain outside after dark.
AMANDA: I won't.
JULIA: You will be devoured by the camacrusa. Though, how it manages to devour them is not specified, since it— it's just a leg.
AMANDA: I was gonna say, where's the mouth? And I would just say that the worst place, bottom of the foot.
JULIA: I— I think it's like halfway up the leg part and it like— or where the kneecap is perhaps—
AMANDA: In the knee, yeah.
JULIA: —and then it opens up and it goes, "Chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp."
AMANDA: Yeah, in the knee is good. It's one of those tattoos where like when you open your leg, it looks different, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah, that's— that's fucked up, and I love it. It doesn't specify—
AMANDA: Yes, it's fucked up.
JULIA: —where the mouth or lack of mouth is, so I don't know.
AMANDA: You know, that's okay. We weren't around to ask these questions when this myth was first recorded, so—
JULIA: So lastly, of course, we have to talk about one of the most memorable ones, one that we have talked about firsthand on the show, and that is Bloody Bones and Rawhead.
AMANDA: Bloody Bones, of course, our good, old friend.
JULIA: So in general, these two figures are generally warning against misbehavior, but it's also used to keep children from wandering towards dangerous places, staying out past dark, and a new to me one which is, listening at keyholes.
AMANDA: Oh, nosy little children. I see.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. For those of you who haven't heard of Bloody Bones and Rawhead or don't remember the story, this is a Boogeyman figure from England and North America. It was first written about in 1548, though it is safe to say that it predates that time. Known as Bloody Bones, Rawhead, Tommy Rawhead, or Rawhead-Bloody Bones hyphenated altogether. This was a figure that was used, quote, "To awe children and keep them in subjection," according to the father of liberalism, John Locke.
AMANDA: Oh, I didn't know John Locke commented on not economics.
JULIA: Yes, he did, and he was like— and also we shouldn't subject children this way.
AMANDA: I mean, yes. He— he also talked about, like, preparing children to be like, you know, citizens of capitalism. So, like, I— I get it, I get it.
JULIA: Yeah. So, though it originated in England, it spread to North America, most commonly it is retold in the Southern United States. And I will— I'll start us off with an old nursery rhyme about the two which is, "Rawhead and Bloody Bones steals naughty children from their homes, takes them to his dirty den, and they are never seen again."
AMANDA: Oh, no. Not a dirty den.
JULIA: Speaking of that dirty den, and speaking of the kind of keyhole thing that was new to me, Rawhead and Bloody Bones tend to have lairs in dark and forgotten corners of houses apparently, especially—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —the unoccupied space beneath the stairs. Amanda, I'm so sorry to childhood you.
AMANDA: Yes, yes. No, getting that hand through the unfinished stairs, that's— that's bad.
JULIA: Yes. So if a child were to peer between the gaps in the steps or to look through a keyhole, they might catch a glimpse of a filthy, hunched figure, hunkered down on top of a pile of child-sized bones.
AMANDA: Yep, that's a very effective image. Good job.
JULIA: Yes. And not only that, he also had a raw bloodied scalp that gives him his name.
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: And if you meet his eye, a strong, large hand will flesh out and snatch up his unfortunate victim to be devoured, adding their bones to his pile.
AMANDA: Incredible. This is a very effective myth.
JULIA: Yes. And not just peeking into places that they shouldn't, children also, who used bad words or disobeyed their parents, were said to suffer a similar fate, with Bloody Bones just like venturing out of his dark hiding place to find the culprit and grab them.
AMANDA: Oh, no. Someone said piss and Bloody Bones is really going to come after them.
JULIA: Yes, it is— it's truly wild. My personal favorite in the United States, at least, as we talked about before, the Rawhead and Bloody Bones are actually two individual creatures, kind of like you've created before, Amanda. Where they are either two separate creatures or they are two separate parts of the same monster. So Rawhead is specifically like a skull that has been stripped of skin that bites its victims, while Bloody Bones is a dancing head with skeleton that accompanies him. And then sometimes Bloody Bones throws Rawhead after his victims and then goes, "Nom, nom, nom, nom."
AMANDA: Yeah, it's a real, like, combo move in a video game—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —that I don't want being thrown at me.
JULIA: The last thing I want to say about Bloody Bones is— particularly, this is an American story, but Bloody Bones is said to punish gossips by taking their heads.
AMANDA: Alright. I— I think that the removing the head is a very useful consequence for, like, cursing, gossiping, listening to secrets, and then presumably retelling them—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —that I— that I get.
JULIA: Yeah. And I— I think it's like also a child and parent privacy thing where it's like, "Do not look into our room. We are doing things. The door is closed for a reason."
AMANDA: Yeah. "There's no iPads yet. We can't give you screen time. Uh, we got a— we got to start sort of enforcing some boundaries here."
JULIA: "Go read a book, child." So, to finish this off, I want to talk about kind of the psychology behind Boogeyman like we talked about in this episode, so like, where they come from in terms of parenting and like their effects, basically. So when the Boogeyman and bogeys in general were first starting to be used, like as I said in the 1500s, though, possibly earlier. Part of their usage made a lot of sense. Like, there were a lot of environmental threats and dangers that children needed to be kept away from, and nursery bogeys were used as a way to warn children about those things. However, the more modern day boogeys and bogeys aren't monsters, the way that they used to be. We grew up, Amanda, with, like, stranger danger, with men in vans with candy, and more modernly, we see a lot the, like, threat of human trafficking and kind of the urban legends that surround that. But at the end of the day, they really do, like, serve the same purpose, right? So Scientific American did a really interesting piece on what's the Boogeyman, which I—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —think really sums it up nicely. So I'm just gonna like, quote, them, because they did a fantastic job, which is, "The Boogeyman is not accidental. It must be triggered, and because of this, it can be controlled, or rather, it can be overcome. It's great if you never commit a transgression that attracts its attention, but if you do, you'll have to face it alone, and there's a reason for that. Up until the point that we meet the Boogeyman, our parents are a great force in our lives. They typically reconcile most issues for us, but the Boogeyman tends to come when they aren't around, or they are powerless to stop it. That's because this is the moment when we need to stand up and assert ourselves as members of the social order. We need to indicate our wrongdoing. It is only by understanding our missteps and accepting ownership for them that we can banish the Boogeyman. It is the first reconciliation that we manage, a danger that we face and conquer." And they go on to talk about how that specifically around the, like, two to three-year range, where it's a milestone of being like, "Oh, my actions have consequences." And, like, realizing that as a, like, developmental mental thing for children is extremely important, which is why these kind of like Boogeyman stories were used for a lot of cultures around the world, and specifically for children.
AMANDA: Fascinating. And one of my favorite genres of your urban legends that new conspirators have written in with, are as you become parents, or have friends who have kids, or getting a position of caretaking kids, what you find yourself retelling and parenting, because, you know, it is those stories that suddenly in the moment, you're like, "Oh, wait, I better tell you why the dark is scary or under your bed is scary, so you don't reach under there and then topple out of the bed when you're in your big girl bed and the— there's no more sides to your crib." It is a technology, storytelling and— and narrative is how we create, and enforce, and transgress the boundaries of society. And I could not be more fascinated to hear from folks about the sorts of bogey and Boogeyman stories that they grew up with, or perhaps didn't, and what your reflections are on that now.
JULIA: Yeah. And I think it's like really interesting too, because as we've modernized the Boogeyman, we have definitely gone away from like, "Oh, you know, scary monster that only children would believe in." And now we have gotten kind of like, much darker where it's like full-ass adults hear the stories of like “Boogeyman”, quote-unquote, where we're talking about, you know, like child snatchers, and human trafficking, and, like, guys with candy and— and stuff like that. Those are, like, very human monsters. We have gone away from the supernatural Boogeyman, and we've created this kind of Boogeyman that could be anywhere, not just in the dangerous places. And I think that's, like, really interesting.
AMANDA: And play into societal biases and societal fears.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: You know, they're not lurking in the reeds anymore, but instead lurking in the malls and things like that. But I think in one way, it updates to reflect the sort of terrain of modern life.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: In many ways things are safer, we have fences, we have safety standards, we have, you know, ways that farms are— are not integrated with society as much— nearly as much anymore. So in a way, it's a modern myth for a modern time, and I think that this will open up even more thought as we do our urban legend episodes, about the purpose of some of these myths, or you're just kind of titillating and scaring your friends in middle school.
JULIA: So next time that you think you hear something go bump in the night, and you remember a story that your parents told you—
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: —remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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