Episode 283: Ever After & Cinderella (Myth Movie Night with Jane Solomon)
/Was Drew Barrymore’s “Ever After” the best version of the Cinderella story? We’re joined by lexicographer Jane Solomon to determine if this 90s body glitter filled movie truly embodies this fairy tale!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of sexual innuendo, heart attack, death, slavery, violence, gore, murder, abuse, and child abandonment.
Guest
Jane Solomon is a lexicographer and emoji expert based in Oakland, California. She spends her days working on various projects related to words and emoji. She's currently the Senior Emoji Lexicographer at Emojipedia. She serves on the Unicode Emoji Subcommittee and the Word Panel of the Scripps National Spelling Bee. Jane is the author of the children's book The Dictionary of Difficult Words. She has a twin sister who is also a lexicographer. Find her on Twitter at @janesolomon.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Gearbreakers by Zoe Hana Mikuta.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Join the Party, a collaborative storytelling and roleplaying podcast co-hosted in part by Julia and Amanda. Search for Join the Party in your podcast app, or go to jointhepartypod.com.
Sponsors
- Calm is the #1 app to help you reduce your anxiety and stress and help you sleep better. Get 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com/spirits.
- Brooklinen delivers luxury bed sheets, pillows, comforters, & blankets straight to your door. Go to Brooklinen.com right now and use promo code “spirits” to get $25 off when you spend $100 or more, PLUS free shipping.
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcripts are available at http://spiritspodcast.com/episodes. To buy merch, hear us on other podcasts, contact us, find our mailing address, or download our press kit, head on over to http://spiritspodcast.com.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this Episode 283: Ever After with guest, Jane Solomon. Welcome, Jane!
JANE: Thanks for having me.
JULIA: It is our pleasure. Thank you so much for being here. And I don't think we've ever done a guest Myth Movie Night before. So I'm very, very excited to have you here.
JANE: I'm so honored.
JULIA: Before we get started and talk about Ever After as a movie. Can you tell our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do?
JANE: Sure, yes. So as we established already, my name is Jane Solomon. I am a lexicographer. I'm a children's book author. I'm an emoji expert. Starting with Lexicographer, I've worked for a bunch of dictionaries over the last, I don't know, I guess it's been 15 years now. I've lost track of time because of the pandemic.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: And so I think about definitions and words a lot. I also wrote a children's book that is a lexicography book. It's called The Dictionary of Difficult Words. And it basically has a bunch of really hard words that kids are unlikely to have encountered and just it's supposed to be a fun jumping-off point for introduction to dictionaries and dictionary skills. And it's highly illustrated. So it's a really fun book. And then the emoji expert part, I am the Senior Emoji Lexicographer at Emojipedia. And so I write emoji definitions there, I write articles about emoji. And actually, you all first got in touch with me because the last article I wrote for Emojipedia was framing emoji as folklore. And then I said, do you have you ever done an episode about Ever After, and here we are.
JULIA: Incredible. I love that. I feel like I have to ask and I'm sure this is a question you get probably in every interview. What's your favorite emoji?
JANE: Oh, okay. So I would say of the new emoji that have recently come out. Melting face emoji is my favorite one.
JULIA: Big fan of melting face. It's so good.
JANE: So it's a smiling face. And the bottom of it is like melting into a puddle. And it just feels like it has a bunch of different uses. Because I mean, it's nice when, when there's a lot of stuff going on. And I feel like it has similar uses to upside-down smiley face where it can be used sarcastically a lot. You're confused by the emotions and the things that are happening to the, the emoji. It's great. It's new, please find it on your emoji keyboard today, update your phones to make sure you have the new emoji. It's a great one.
JULIA: I'm a big fan of the new like peeking eye through the hands emoji. Because I feel like that is a feeling that I feel a lot. So it works very well.
JANE: Yeah, when new emoji are added, people really gravitate toward faces, hearts, flowers, sparkles, that kind of thing. And are not using one's like, really, really specific depictions of like sports or different kinds of objects. People are really going for these emoji that are more about emotion and emphasis and flourish. So I'm not surprised to hear that you like a face emoji.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, I'm basic that way.
JANE: You know, it, it, it's because they're useful.
JULIA: Yeah. 100%.
JANE: It, it, it, I don't think it's basic at all. It's, it's beautiful.
AMANDA: What do people tend to ask you most about emoji? Like when you say that that's an aspect of your job. I feel like I'm kind of picturing a like, okay, boomer style reaction that might underestimate the utility of emoji or talk about how they are, you know, ruining communication or whatever. But maybe that's not the case. I would love to know from you directly.
JANE: Well, I think that emoji, like in general, are any kind of sort of computer mediated speech that's informal. Can be viewed as not serious, it can be viewed as silly or frivolous. But this is a very real way that people communicate. and that's important. And with a background in lexicography, I view any form of communication. Any word no matter the register, if it's formal or informal, to be the same in terms of the value they have. So I just sort of try to convince people that maybe they're not really thinking about emoji in the terms that they should. And that they should take it seriously because this is valuable information can be presented there. I mean, there are like court cases where the interpretation of emoji of an emoji is important. Sometimes it's something a little bit silly. Like there was a case in Israel about like if people agreed to rent an apartment or not based on some emoji they sent. And then there's other ones that are like if someone uses an emoji gun, is that a threat? So that's obviously very, very importance people's, you know, future hers are dependent on that. So let's take emoji seriously, because they do matter.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. I can only imagine like the future law classes where they're teaching like interpretation of emoji in, you know, standard practice or something like that.
JANE: Oh, yeah. It's not even like future law classes. I think this is coming up now in legal classes, because it has to. You don't want to be caught unprepared if this comes up in a case.
JULIA: Yeah, no, I mean, that totally makes sense. And law has to constantly be changing and adapting in order to like, keep up with the times and the technology and emojis. 100% part of that?
AMANDA: I think, like dictionaries, you know, law needs to reflect what people are doing and how they're talking and communicating.
JANE: Yeah, and I mean, there, there are obviously differences between emojis and dictionaries. Are like words that are in dictionaries and emojis. Because as a word lexicographer, I sort of observe how language is being used. And then I, you know, collect evidence and write definitions based on how it's already been used. You're like catching up with things. But when you work in emoji, there's a very limited set of emoji that are available. They are released by the Unicode Consortium, which I'm actually a member of the Unicode Emoji Subcommittee. So I do read proposals that people send in about making new emoji. But it's more of a gatekeeping situation, because there's a small group of people who decide what emoji actually appear on every single keyboard. Versus, you know, when you're defining words, you really are just observing. There's still obviously a gatekeeper aspect because of who's writing the definitions and what they happen to deem important or decide to record. So there's still some of that, but the ideals are, and, and the approaches are completely different.
JULIA: That is fascinating. And I have like a million questions about like, what's the most interesting emoji proposal that you have seen? Like, but hasn't been made into an actual emoji yet.
JANE: I'll, I'll tell you the funniest one.
JULIA: Okay, please.
JANE: Which I, I think it's okay to talk about it. I'm supposed to, it's supposed to be secret stuff. But I think it was clearly a joke. Someone submitted an emoji proposal to add skin tone modifiers to the eggplant emoji.
JULIA: I love that.
AMANDA: I love that so much!.
JULIA: That's so good!
JANE: I don't know how like PG or PG-13, which are the two ratings of Ever After this podcast is. So I don't have to go into detail.
JULIA: Oh, rated R, baby, rated R!
AMANDA: All the way, all the way!
JANE: Your demographic is gonna understand what that means.
JULIA: Yeah!
JANE: But--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: That's great.
AMANDA: And we do want to talk about 1998 romantic comedy Ever After: A Cinderella Story. But your job is so fascinating that we just, we had to do a little cul de sac here.
JULIA: We did. Of course. And we could reroute at the end of the episode to after we're done with Ever After. But for the time being, that is what we were talking about in this episode, the 1998 film starring Drew Barrymore. Oh my gosh, this movie is incredible. And Jane, not to kind of throw you under the bus here. But typically, when we start an episode for a Myth Movie Night, we have one of us try to summarize the movie in under two minutes. Do you think you're up to the task?
JANE: Sure. It's, it's going to be incomplete.
JULIA: Wonderful.
JANE: And I, I will encourage everyone to watch the movie if they haven't seen it or rewatch the movie, if they haven't seen it in a while. Because I'm not going to do justice to the piece of art that is Ever After.
JULIA: That's totally fine. You know what, we're going to talk about it for probably another 45 minutes anyway. So even if we don't hit all of the things in that two minutes, hey, we're gonna talk about all the stuff.
JANE: Wonderful.
AMANDA: Normally either Julia or I do a two-minute summary of the movie in order to avoid spoiling people for plot if they wish to skip ahead, but this is Cinderella. So we all know what happened. So I think we can be even more relaxed than usual and kind of just hear your take on what happens in the movie? And, and what's interesting?
JULIA: All right, Jane, are you ready?
JANE: I'm ready. So Ever After is a Cinderella Story. I'm gonna place it at the very end of Leonardo da Vinci's life, which was a period where he was living in France for a few years and he was the royal painter and architect of King Francis the I of France. The movie actually says it takes place in 1512 but we can talk about later why that wouldn't be realistic. Anyway, it's a, it's a Cinderella Story, it stars Drew Barrymore. Drew Barrymore loves her father more than anything, he comes back from a trip. She's very excited to see him and he brings home a wife, a new wife, her stepmother, and two sisters. Very soon after he returns. He has a heart attack and leaves everyone behind. So it's Cinderella, whose name is actually Danielle in this movie. But we'll just call her Cinderella, whatever, or Drew Barrymore. Which I, she will respond to any of them, I think. So we have this setup where it's like a sort of rich family living in an estate. But now they've lost, you know, the Father. Anyway, 10 years late- oh, it's important to kee- the father gives Drew Barrymore, Cinderella, Danielle, whatever, we're going to call her a copy of Utopia at the very beginning. And that sort of shapes her worldview, you get a sense of this is an anachronism as well. We, I'm not going to dwell on this because we're already almost out of time. Anyway, it's a Cinderella Story, it's a feminist take on it. And the way that '90s movies were feminist, but it actually holds up today. She ends up having a bunch of meat cutes with the prince dressed in various costumes some, at first she throws an apple at his head, because she thinks that he's a poacher going through their land or stealing their food. Then she is trying to release one of her family's servants who's been sold by her stepmother to be, I think, a slave, I think essentially. Because the stepmother is running out of money. And she goes and frees him, meets the prince again and teaches him about how to be a good person. They run into each other other times, Leonardo da Vinci, ends up really, really liking Danielle and they become friends. And so the Prince and Danielle run into each other in the context of Leonardo da Vinci. And the movie sort of replaces the idea of magic with science. And, and it, there is essentially no magic in the movie, which is a really interesting detail. Essentially, it's a Cinderella Story, they ended up together, but it has some interesting aspects. And the framing device of the movie is that it's an ancestor of Danielle's telling the story to the Grimms' Brothers. And she's basically saying your Cinderella Story is not accurate. Let me tell you the true story.
AMANDA: We love a framing device.
JANE: And so the Grimms' Brothers are there and the beginning and at the end. So it's an interesting take, because there are historical figures who are thrown into the mix. One thing that I was thinking about is the movie Titanic came out the year before. So in 1997, and that also has a sort of similar framing device as an old woman telling a story. Of course, in Titanic, the old woman is the one who was the young woman in the story, and this is an ancestor. But it just made me think about this, this is kind of like I view this film, as in conversation with Titanic.
JULIA: Yeah.
JANE: And also Romeo and Juliet, Romeo + Juliet, which came out earlier.
JULIA: Yeah.
JANE: Sort of--
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
JANE: --was a sort of similar period,
AMANDA: Like 100%.
JULIA: That is a great point about film history that I didn't put two and two together, where it is like kind of playing off of very similar films that came out around the same time. And I really enjoyed that. That's awesome.
AMANDA: Well, if you'll forgive me, the little diversion normally, you know, kind of Julie's driving with with questions here. But Jane, I would love to hear what you think all those three movies you mentioned Romeo + Juliet, Titanic and Ever After have in common? Like, do you have any kind of sense or guess as to what they were responding to, or sort of need that they were filling? I was a little bit young to be the audience for these movies when they came out. And so I have only encountered them as like a thing that my teachers loved and showed us in elementary school or high school, when we were like, suppose you know, had an off day. Or things that I know are good, but weren't sort of, you know, contemporaneous for me.
JANE: I think that it's in the '90s, it felt like there was a sort of revival of 15th and 16th century period. You saw it in the fashion, a lot of the dresses that are worn in Ever After and Romeo + Juliet, or I don't, I don't actually know if that's how it's pronounced. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it that way. Just because it's audio.
JULIA: It's helpful.
JANE: Obviously, Titanic is a completely different period. A lot of the outfits you just put combat boots on, and suddenly you look like you're in the '90s.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: So there was something that about that fashion and style that lent itself to that period. And to the audience, which I mean, for Ever After, I think the audience was teen girls, which I was at the time.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: So I think there's something about that. But I also think with Romeo + Juliet, and Cinderella, those are classic fairy tales/literature that it seems like there's always a new version of it being made. And so this just happened to be the specific '90s vision of it.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: I love those '90s visions, honestly.
JANE: Well, it's coming back. I want to talk about body glitter.
JULIA: Yeah!
JANE: Yeah.
JULIA: Let's talk about body glitter.
AMANDA: Anytime.
JANE: And I don't know if that, that might be a conversation we have a little bit later. Because that's at the climax of the film.
JULIA: Sure, we can, we can get back to that at some point. But if you want to talk about body glitter right now, we could talk about body glitter right now.
JANE: I put a couple questions and like one of them is, is body glitter historically accurate? Now, I, which I mean, like--
JULIA: Jane, is it?
JANE: Okay, so the answer is complicated. And I'm gonna say, sort of, first of all, I think that asking if this movie is historically accurate is the wrong question, because it's a fairy tale. And we have to suspend our disbelief. And this was a version of Cinderella made specifically for its audience of, you know, let's say '90s teen girls, and I was one and it worked really, really well. So that doesn't bother me at all. I think in terms of like, the historical accuracy of it, I think about there was an episode of This American Life a long time ago, where they sent a medievalist to medieval times. To basically critique the historical accuracy of it.
JULIA: Oh, no.
JANE: You think going in that he's going to be incredibly stuck up and talk about everything that was wrong and nitpick and essentially say this is a terrible place. But instead, he is taken in by the magic of it. He's so happy to be in a place where people are celebrating this thing that he has devoted his life to. Even if there are some things that are not accurate, he just, he just filled with extreme joy, and going there. And that's kind of how I feel about Ever After. I'm not someone who studied this period. But I think that that's the right attitude to take about the movie.
JULIA: Incredible. I hope this is the right term.
AMANDA: I think that's really smart. I think we're meeting it on its terms like this is a classic story. And one of my favorite episodes we've done has been around Beauty and the Beast. Like talking about, not the fact that the Disney story got it wrong or right. But that there is a ton of really interesting and rich sort of tradition and mythology around like a version of a story. And so I think it's the same thing here where it's, you know, it's particularly '90s version of it, and we don't have to necessarily enjoy because it's not historically accurate. But I in fact, enjoy knowing what is anachronistic and what is accurate. And I don't know, it just enhances my enjoyment.
JANE: Yeah, for sure. So I studied a little bit for this podcast because I was just gonna read like maybe a couple of versions of Cinderella. But I have a twin sister and she took a fairy tale class when she was in college. And she still has the textbook from it. And she, she was just like, just read the textbook. So it's actually called the Great Fairy Tale Tradition.
AMANDA: Who was that a Norton [17:07]?
JANE: Yeah, it's a Norton Critical Edition.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: Selected and edited by Jack Zipes, I don't know if I said his name right. Anyway, it has actually four versions of Cinderella under the section, "The Revenge and Reward of Neglected Daughters". And so the first one is the Basile, The Cat Cinderella, which was written in 1635. Then there's the Perrault version, Cinderella or the Glass Slipper, which is 1697. Then another one that came out around the same time Finette Cendron, which is by Marie-Catherine d'Aulnoy. And then there's the Grimms' brothers 1857, Cinderella. It was really, really interesting reading all four versions of them. Because they, they really, really vary in violence and gruesomeness. Cinderella, kind of some of them, she's just so, so, so kind and nice. And I feel like that's the version of Cinderella that we're used to in these Hollywood depictions. Because they're often marketed toward children.
JULIA: Right.
JANE: And some of the things that she does, and these other ones are horrifying. But I think really, really interesting and worth talking about. So in the Basile one, which is 1635, the Cat Cinderella, I'm not exactly sure why it's called The Cat Cinderella. Essentially, the father is a prince, the love interest is a king. So that's a little bit different than what we know from, you know, some popular depictions of Cinderella in the recent past. There's actually two stepmothers in this one.
AMANDA: Oh, wow.
JANE: So the first one is really, really mean. And Cinderella is so miserable. And she goes to her sewing teacher and says. "What do I do? I wish you were my mother." And the sewing teacher is, quote, "Spurred by the devil to give Cinderella some advice." She's actually not called Cinderella in this but we're just going to use that for ease of explanation. And she basically is like your main stepmother likes to see you and rags. So ask her to go into the trunk with the old dresses in it. And when she's looking to pick you out something, close the trunk on her neck and it will break her neck. And then I will become your, your mother.
JULIA: Ohhh!
AMANDA: Oh, my God! Just some really practical stepmother killing advice.
JANE: Really, really practical.
JULIA: Not even that but the sewing teacher is like so what you're gonna do is you're gonna murder someone and then I'm gonna marry your dad.
JANE: Yeah, exactly. And the thing is the sewing teacher loved Cinderella. That was like the very beginning of the story. She doted on her, and then after she got married to the Father, which Cinderella actually had to persuade her father to do. It says the sewing teacher loved her for like five or six days and then stopped loving her and brought in her own six daughters.
AMANDA: That's so many daughters!
JULIA: Nooo!
JANE: And then her father kind of forgets about Cinderella and, and loves the six daughters more. And so it's a, it's a very interesting one. There's a magic fig tree that a fairy pops out of in this one. Oh, the squash connection in this or like the pumpkin connection is that when she's preparing for the ball she sprays herself with squash water which they describe as cosmetic oil.
JULIA: Ooh!
AMANDA: Ooh, so body glitter. Could be body glitter.
JANE: Yeah! So let's say that squash wat- we're gonna say that that's going to be the version of body glitter. Let's bring up body glitter every single time and the significance of body glitter.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: Obviously while--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: --you're talking about it if you haven't seen the movie is that when Cinderella in Ever After ghost the ball she's wearing a, a sparkly silver dress which was her mother's. She's wearing giant wings that Leonardo da Vinci made her. And she's wearing body glitter on her face and some jewels on her forehead. There's something about that the dazzling that actually feels historically accurate as you go through the stories.Going back to The Cat Cinderella, the glass slipper was actually a patten, which is basically shoes in that time had soft soles. So if you wanted to go outside or go dancing or something, you would wear this covering over your shoe. And it had like, usually like a wood bottom. And that would keep your slippers that had soft soles nice and fresh. So there is no glass slipper in this version. In the end of this one, the stepsisters aren't punished at all, they just are disappointed. And they basically accept their fate and say you must be mad to oppose the stars.
JULIA: Oh, okay. That's convenient.
JANE: The violence happens in the secret murder of the first step mother. But you know, the stepsisters end up, okay. Which is not the case in the other version, and some of the other versions.
JULIA: Yeah.
JANE: So that was the first version I looked at. Do you want to hear about the second?
JULIA: Yes, yes, of course.
AMANDA: Yeah. I'm curious what the morals are of the stories that we're hearing. Because normally fairy tales do come with morals. And the one that we just talked about kind of sounded like don't try too hard to change your fate because you're gonna get there one way or the other.
JANE: Yeah. So does that mean that Cinderella didn't have to murder her first stepmother?
AMANDA: Yeah. Because then she could have still had her nice sewing teacher. Instead, she has still a bad stepmother. More sisters than before, and no nice sewing teacher.
JANE: The king who, you know, is the love interest in this one has some really interesting turns of phrase. Obviously this is in translation from Italian, after he finds a slipper he says, "If the foundation is so lovely, what must the house be like?"
JULIA: Ohhhh.
JANE: Very sexy.
JULIA: That is sexy.
AMANDA: It is very sexy.
JULIA: I want people to say that about me.
AMANDA: Yeah, but at the same time, Julia, money can buy a nice slipper. It can't buy a nice face at that time. So I'm a little bit lame, hmm. But you know, I guess, I guess the wrapping really matters.
JANE: The power of squash water cannot be underestimated.
AMANDA: You know? You're right. I haven't I haven't considered that.
JULIA: I love to be sprayed with squash water and look like a Dewey plant. That's what I'm picking--
AMANDA: Yeah!
JULIA: --out right now.
AMANDA: I mean, my skincare routine basically makes me look like a freshly-misted plant at nighttime. So--
JANE: I mean, that checks out.
AMANDA: Excellent.
JANE: Cinderella would do it.
JULIA: Jane, how about you tell us a little bit more about the other Cinderella stories that you researched. But just as soon as we get back from a refill.
JANE: Sounds good.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[23:15]
[Refill]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia. There's a party going on right now. So let's just get to it, because you don't want to miss out on the party, right? Welcome to our newest patrons, Pagan Hedge, Frances, Maria, The Mediogre, which is very, very funny and very, very cool, and Deneva. We are always glad to welcome a new patron into the mix. And you guys get some cool stuff like recipe cards, behind the scenes stuff, all of that kind of thing by joining at patreon.com/spiritspodcast And you can also join our incredible Supporting Producer level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Little Vomit Spiders Running Around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course our Legend level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Clara, Iron Havoc, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty. This is the part where I enjoy telling you about a thing that I've been liking lately. And this time I want to tell you about Gearbreakers, which is a book by Zoe Hana Mikuta. It was so much fun to read if you like Max, which I personally love Max as just a genre. But also like romance and enemies two lovers, this is definitely the book for you. And if you'd like a lot of those things, you might also like Join The Party, which is a another podcast from Multitude. And we just wrapped up on our second campaign which is a thrilling adventure of superheroes, community, and all things about defeating capitalism. And honestly, what more could you want? Join The Party is a D&D actual play podcast with tangible worlds. Genre pushing storytelling and collaborators who make each other laugh each week. You can start with Campaign number 1, which is the party campaign for a dose of classic high fantasy gameplay. Or you can start with Campaign 2, which, like I said, just wrapped up. For stuff like D&D mechanics in a modern superhero centric setting. So what are you waiting for? Pull up a chair and Join The Party, search for Join The Party in your podcast app or go to jointhepartypod.com. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. We've talked about how life can be a little bit overwhelming sometimes. And a lot of people can experience burnout without even knowing it. If one day you wake up and it's just like you are feeling a lack of motivation. You're feeling helpless or trapped or detached or fatigued. Much like I do sometimes when I push myself a little bit too far past my limits. You need to talk to someone, you need to relax the stress in your life. And BetterHelp is a great way of doing that. BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. Which trust me, sometimes looking someone in the face and having to tell them your problems can be really hard. But sometimes just being able to vent and not look at someone dead in the eyes at the time is much, much easier. And that's what I really like about BetterHelp. And I like that it's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. So Spirits listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's BetterH-e-l-p.com/spirits. We are sponsored this week by Brooklinen. And you probably start your day off the same way. Maybe you eat some breakfast, maybe you have a cup of coffee, maybe you start by taking a shower in the morning. But personally, I start my day well-rested every single day. Because of my incredibly cozy Brooklinen bedding. Brooklinen is the home to the internet's favorite sheets. They were created in 2014 to give customers this luxury hotel level home essentials that didn't break the bank. And they offer everything from snuggly sheets to cozy towels, and robes, loungewear accessories, and so much more. If it is your first time trying Brooklinen, might I suggest their best selling Luxe sheets as a perfect place to start. And they feature this irresistible soft feel and the buttery smooth finish, which you've heard us talk about before, we love the buttery smooth. And if that's not enough to convince you check out their five star reviews, there are over 100,000 of them. That is over 100,005 star reviews. I mean seriously, what are you waiting for? Go to Brooklinen.com and use the promo code "spirits" to get $20 off your purchase of $100 or more. That's B-r-o-o-k-l-i-n-e-n.com. And enter the promo code "spirits" for $20 off your purchase today. Brooklinen, they're the curators of comfort. Now your morning ritual can change the way that you look at your day. But have you ever thought about evening rituals? The time to allow ourselves to transition. To wind down both our devices and our minds. And the evening kind of allows us to stop our racing thoughts and drift to sleep naturally. So you can power your day by powering off at night. That's where we're partnering with Calm which is the #1 mental wellness app to give you the tools you need to improve the way you feel. You can reduce stress and anxiety through guided meditations. You can improve focus with curated music tracks. And you can recharge with Calm's imaginative sleep stories, both for children and adults. And they even now have new daily movement sessions which are designed to relax your body and uplift your mind. So Calm is ready to help you stress less sleep more and live a happier healthier life. And for listeners of the showm Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com/spirits. Go to c-a-l-m.com/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com/spirits. And now let's get back to the show. Jane, thank you so much for telling us all about body glitter and also Drew Barrymore. And I know like a lot of us aren't really like going out to places where we could wear body glitter and also have a few adult beverages. But if you could, what is the adult beverage that you would pick?
JANE: I'm just gonna say a Pimm's Cup.
JULIA: Okay!
JANE: Which is a very old man British kind of drink. But usually it's with something similar to Sprite and then the sort of spicy liqueur Pimm's. I would do it with ginger ale, and then you throw some fruit in there.
JULIA: Nice! No, I love that.
AMANDA: You know, it would look great with a squash blossom garnish. I don't think that we've really explored that yet.
JANE: Yeah, yeah. I would drink it with squash blossom. That's very important.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Well, with those drinks in hand, how would you tell us about the next Cinderella origin story? I'm going to call them origin stories from now on. I like that.
JANE: Okay. Okay, so I'll go through this one really quickly, because I know that I am not used to speaking, because of the pandemic. So I forgot how long it takes me to explain things. So this one is Cinderella or the Glass Slipper, which is 1697. And that's by Perrault from France. I would say that if you're familiar with the Brandy Cinderella? This sort of follows that pretty closely. The father was a gentleman, I don't think the father dies in most of these stories, actually. There's two stepsisters, one stepmother. One of the stepsisters is described as not as malicious as the older sister, so that she has that going for her.
JULIA: Okay.
JANE: This is the story in which Cinderella is the most kind. I would say that this one and the next one I'm going to talk about she's the most kind. So there's one line that when it's talking about Cinderella getting her sister's ready for the ball that she is not allowed to go to. It says, "Any other person would have messed up their hairdos, but not Cinderella because she was that nice." In this book, there's the glass slipper. That's or the story, there's glass slipper, that's actually in the title of it. And then the body glitter element in this one.
JULIA: Tell me about it.
JANE: This is a new concept to me. Have you ever heard of patches?
JULIA: Patches.
AMANDA: No!
JANE: And, and I mean in not like an eyepatch. In this time, women, and I think men too, would wear black silk cutouts in different shapes like stars or circles or moons over pimples.
AMANDA: Oooh!
JULIA: Really?
AMANDA: I want to start doing that.
JANE: So to cover up your pimple, you would make a feature of it.
AMANDA: Oh my God, I've never heard of that.
JULIA: Can this be back in fashion? I have so many things that I want to cover.
AMANDA: I know.
JANE: So I really encourage you to look up patches. And you probably have to put in some clarifying search terms like black silk patches. And you'll see some pictures because there are some that have been preserved from the era. And in this version of it, they get patches from the best patch maker. And that's part of their getting ready routine. And to me that is body glitter.
JULIA: There you go.
AMANDA: Yeah, that's definitely body adornment.
JANE: For sure. This one has the most gentle ending, the stepsisters apologized. And then Cinderella gives them apartments and sets them up with two great noblemen of the court.
JULIA: Wow, that's really nice! Love it.
JANE: So this is like a, you know, I think this is children might not get scared if they read this.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, probably not. Jane, can I circle back to something that you mentioned before?
JANE: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So you mentioned in the movie Ever After the father passes away, but in most of these stories, the father is still alive. I'm curious if like modern adaptations tend to kill him off. Because they don't want to have to justify Cinderella's love for her father when he's still like allowing her to be part of this like abusive relationship with the stepmother?
JANE: And in some cases, he actively abuses her. So in the first story with the six step sisters, he completely forgets about her. When he goes on a trip and he gets his other daughter's presents and all Cinderella wanted was for him to go to the dove of the fairies and ask for a gift from them. And he doesn't do that. So then his boat won't leave on his journey. Like Cinderella asks for very little and she gets neglected by him. So I, I do think that that is a device and I'm assuming it's in other versions of the story to not make his character so complex and like cruel.
JULIA: Yeah. 100% I was, I was just curious, because I was like, well, why did they keep killing him off and all the modern stuff. It's just like, cuz she has to love someone and have someone that she can at least imagine is on her side.
JANE: I would say something very, very interesting about Ever After. Which you, you don't get this kind of depth in the stories. Partially because they're very short. And partially because the stepmother is a character trope. And they don't go into her motivations so easily other than she's evil. But in this movie, Anjelica Huston is the stepmother and she shows a lot of motivation and a lot of feeling. And basically, she really, really loves this man who dies. And Cinderella reminds her of him. And that's part of the reason that she's so cruel to him. She can't bear to see her because she reminds her of the worst thing that ever happened to her.
AMANDA: Also, Anjelica Huston, gorgeous! Gorgeous woman!
JANE: The line readings by Anjelica Huston in this movie are impressive. Like this could have been a shitty movie. It could have been a movie that she just was checked out of and did the minimum. But she did not do the minimum. One of the lines in it is at the end, spoiler alert, you know, Danielle Cinderella confronts her stepmother and asks, "Did you ever love me at all?" And her stepmother responds, "How could anyone love a pebble in their shoe?" Which, I mean, that's--
JULIA: The most.
JANE: It really hits hard. And also the significance of the shoes and the whole Cinderella Story. This script is actually really good. And the acting is really good. I mean, you have to suspend your disbelief that Drew Barrymore is doing a British accent. That's a little bit strange, but it takes place in France anyway. So who knows? Like it should, like she could be someone who is a French speaker trying to speak in a British accent and that's why it sounds so strange.
AMANDA: So weird. Certainly no other reason.
JANE: But yeah, the Ever After, gives the characters the stepmother, and even one of the stepsisters so much depth of character. Which is, you know, not in the stories in the same way.
JULIA: Speaking of which, why don't we move on to the next one?
JANE: So the next story is Finette Cendron, 1697 by Marie Catherine d'Aulnoy. This is the wildest Cinderella Story. And I'm saying this after telling you about her breaking the neck of her step- her first stepmother out of [36:20].
AMANDA: Yup!
JANE: And in the first story we talked about, essentially, there's no step siblings in this one, the king and queen, there's a king and queen and they're down on their luck and they have three daughters. And they realize that their daughters have become accustomed to a life of luxury and they can't take care of them. So they need to abandon them.
JULIA: Oh!
AMANDA: Oh, no!
JANE: Yeah, so this one is going to be a little bit strange and violent and weird. They decide to trick their daughters by taking them really, really far out to a remote place and then when they sleep, running away.
AMANDA: You can't just do that.
JANE: So the Queen's doing this by herself.
JULIA: Okay.
JANE: Running away home. So Cinderella on this one has a godmother and she goes to the godmother and the godmother gives her some tricks to find her way home. The Queen actually has to abandon them three times before it sticks. Because Cinderella keeps on making her way home. The third time they're just completely lost. And Cinderella climbs up on a tree, a really big tree and sees a giant mansion or castle. It's like covered in diamonds and gold and it's very disgusting looking. Anyway, they, they, I mean, but beautiful in the story. And they, they go to the castle and an ogres like a lady ogre opens the, the door and is like, Oh, I'm gonna eat you. I'm not gonna eat you today. But if my husband finds you, he'll eat you today. So I'm going to hide you and then maybe you live a little bit longer. Eventually they escaped the ogre and ogres by Cinderella. She shoves the ogre into an oven because she's, she's telling him, Oh, I'm making some really delicious bread but we have to taste the butter with our tongues to make sure it's the right temperature something. And then she pushes them in.
AMANDA: Damn!
JULIA: That famous baking technique.
JANE: Then with the, the wife ogre? She gets decapitated by Cinderella.
JULIA: Oh again?
AMANDA: Nooo!
JULIA: Oh, again?
JANE: So yeah, so there's like, there's some neck injury happening. And then the two other sisters who are her actual sisters. I mean, stepsisters are actual sisters. But their biological sisters, they, they beat up Cinderella a lot and they're really mean. And then after Cinderella saves them by killing these two giants. The sisters make her stay home and they go out and they like go explore the town, gather some food, go to ball. Cinderella is really, really upset and crying that she's left behind. And crying by the fireplace she finds a golden key. The golden key unlocks a wardrobe that has the most beautiful dresses you've ever seen in it. And so Cinderella sneaks out, and all the stories the stepsisters and then the stepmother if they're in the story don't recognize her. Because she's so beautiful and dressed up--
AMANDA: Sure.
JANE: --in the stories. And maybe it's because of she's wearing a few patches on her face.
AMANDA: Possible.
JANE: I think there are patches in this story too. She goes to the ball, prince actually loves her so much, she gets lovesick, loses a ton of weight. He sleeps with the slipper under his pillow.
AMANDA: Seems like uncomfortable, but okay.
JANE: And then eventually, you know, he finds Cinderella and, and they get married. Now this has a very gentle ending too. Cinderella requests that her parents kingdom is restored. And then she just sends the sisters back home, so she doesn't have to deal with them. And the moral of this story because this one has like a, a morality poem at the very end? Like sometimes fairy tales do. Basically is that kindness is the best revenge and one of the lines from it is do favors for the undeserving until they weep each benefit inflicts a wound most deep.
JULIA: That's so metal.
AMANDA: Wow. That is very kill them with kindness. That pretty much is what it just said.
JULIA: Yup!
JANE: That one's pretty fun, I didn't expect an ogre.
AMANDA: No.
JANE: This is the longest one
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: Are there any aspects of the these incredibly wild stories that I now want to pick up the Norton Edition and read, that you see in Ever After or that you wish Ever After included?
JANE: I think the treatment of the sisters at the end is really, really interesting. These first three stories I talked about, the stepsisters are not necessarily punished other than with disappointment or kindness. And in some cases, they're rewarded. And in Ever After what happens with the stepsisters is that the nicer one ends up I think, falling in love with a member of the court. They bond over both liking snacks and dressing up as horses at the ball.
JULIA: Ohhh.
JANE: And then the other stepsister and the mother, Anjelica Huston, end up being forced to be cleaners in a factory where they clean linens. And like the idea is that maybe they would be blinded by the chemicals in that. Which would allude to the Grimm Fairy Tale.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Where their eyes are pecked up by birds!
JANE: Yeah, and I think that the Grimm Fairy Tale is a very, very familiar one to people. It's definitely more violent than like what you expect from Disney or Ever After. There's a magical tree in this one, where Cinderella cries and it grows super fast. That's in the first one we talked about too. It's not Glass Slipper, but silk slippers embroidered with silver. That's actually what the slipper looks like in Ever After. And then with the Grimms' ending, it's the most violent ending. Cinderella basically forgives her sisters on the day of the wedding, and they end up writing next turn the wedding procession. And on the way to the church, they each get one eye poked out on the way out of the church, they get the other eye poked out by birds.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Oh, my!
JANE: Birds are the protectors of Cinderella and multiple versions of this, you know. In the Grimms' one, the birds help her pick lentils out of the fire. Which is the excuse that the mother gives for her not going to the ball in the first one we talked about. It's the dove of the fairies who talks to her and helps her understand what her powers are and that she has someone watching over her. So it really makes sense that Danielle and Ever After dresses up as a bird going to the ball. In the movie, I would say one of the, the most moving moments is when she shows up at the ball with the body glitter and she closes her eyes and she says, "Just breathe". And that is like an amazing moment in cinema.
JULIA: Truly, truly it is. Do we have time to talk about one more scene from the film because it is my personal favorite? We haven't touched on it yet.
JANE: Sure! We, I've, I basically not allowed you to talk about the film at all.
JULIA: That's fine. It's okay. My favorite scene in the entire film is when they get attacked by bandits, basically. And they have some sort of like witty kind of conversation and it is basically lead bandit gives Danielle his word that she can take anything that she can carry on her back. And that includes, in her case, like basically firemen carrying the prince out of the, the forest. And I'm like, girl, I love that. I love that for you. That's a fairy tale as bullshit. And I appreciate that you're dealing with that kind of trickery here.
JANE: Well, and, and one aspect of the of the movie is that Danielle basically saves herself on multiple occasions. She doesn't wait for someone to save her. Obviously, she has the help of Leonardo da Vinci and his inventions. But at one point she's forced him go off and marry this other guy. And she makes her own way out of that situation too, without having to marry him. Also, the prince in this movie, obviously he and, and Danielle are very much in love. He's incredibly flawed. And when he finds out her humble origins rejects her. The resolution is that much more rewarding because he understands the flaws of his ways. And there's real growth in that in some of these stories, it seems a lot more disappointing to Cinderella that her family doesn't love her. She's more concerned with that aspect of the story than with if the prince likes her. She keeps on flitting away at night and running off. The story devices in Ever After and the structures of independence that they give to Danielle are really, a much better way to think about the story for a modern audience. And also taking away the magic, where it's like she's stuck in, she's locked up in a room. Leonardo da Vinci comes and he decides to take the door off the hinges and suddenly she's free. So it's using logic. I think it teaches much better lessons to kids who are learning this story than the other fairy tales. Which are you know, as we talked about their morality tales.
JULIA: Absolutely.
AMANDA: Yeah! It's putting the the moral of the story is that you have the power in your own hands, which may not always be true, but it's a valuable lesson, I think.
JULIA: 100%
JANE: It definitely was very of the '90s. I think that there's a lot more acknowledgement today of privilege and what that means in terms of your ability to change your situation.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: Or to end up you know, married to a prince or whatever.
AMANDA: In some ways that is a lot more honest, right? We're like it takes, it takes an act of God in order to take you out of a system sometimes that is built so hard to keep you within it. And to keep you from advancing.
JANE: One thing that we alluded to earlier is historical inaccuracies. And I don't know if we want to go into that. But King Francis, he did have Leonardo da Vinci in his court the last few years of Vinci's life.
AMANDA: Wow.
JANE: But in this movie, he's an old man. And he would have been in his 30s. At that point, I think.
JULIA: Well, that's an old man and that time period.
AMANDA: That's true, that's true.
JANE: That's true. That's true. All of these things just melt away though, because the movie is actually good. I was really, as a young person, I would always qualify it as like, oh, I enjoyed the movie, but I'm the target audience.
AMANDA: Sure.
JANE: But I think that as I've gotten older, I think it's actually a really good movie.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JANE: It didn't have to be a good movie and it was.
AMANDA: I love that.
JANE: It could have gotten by with less of a good script, less good acting.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, like it is like very well-praised or like a romantic drama that came out in 1998. Like it has a very high score on Rotten Tomatoes. Most of the critic reviews are extremely high. Like it's a good movie.
JANE: It is. I read the Roger Ebert review of it last night, just because I was curious. And he really enjoyed it too, when it came out and appreciated it for what it was.
AMANDA: I love that. Well, I cannot wait to even rewatch with new eyes after all the things that we've learned today and I hope that all the conspirators out there watching it for the first time or maybe a repeat viewing get a lot more out of it than they did before.
JULIA: Absolutely. And Jane, thank you so much for, for leading us through and giving us so much beautiful context in terms of the Cinderella Story as a whole. Can you tell people where they can find you and your work online and other places?
JANE: I think my handle on social media sites is just Jane Solomon, just my name. I have a website called Lexical Items. You could also see my work on Emojipedia. And, yeah, probably various dictionaries that you don't even know about.
AMANDA: Well, we'll link to the one we do know about in the description. But Jane, thank you again.
JANE: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
JULIA: It's our pleasure. And remember listeners when you are going to a ball slathered in period accurate body glitter, stay creepy,
AMANDA: Stay cool.
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind the scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and non alcoholic for every single episode, directors commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!