Episode 30: The Morrigan
/Creepy ravens, death rituals, and battlefield curses abound in this episode on the Celtic goddess trinity of doom and destruction. Hear A+ cursing, terrible stories about our future forms, confusion over what exactly a bull is, and of course some epic mispronunciation as we discuss Badb, Macha, Nemain, and Anann.
Thanks to Audible for supporting our podcast! Hit up audible.com/spirits for a free audiobook plus a 30-day trial, and to show your support for Spirits. We recommendThe Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet and its sequel A Closed and Common Orbit by Becky Chambers, narrated by Rachel Dulude.
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Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 30: The Morrigan.
JS: The triple goddess for the win.
AM: She is so cool. But, before we dive into this very, very awesome myth from my homeland, we have some housekeeping.
JS: First off, it is #trypod month, and not the thing that holds your camera. It is #trypod.
AM: It's been so fun hearing podcast hosts like figure out how to spell this thing without it just being like it's T - R - Y, guys. T - R - Y.
JS: T - R - Y. T - R - Y, not tri. So, basically, it is time to introduce people in your life, who don't listen to podcasts, to the wonderful world of podcasts.
AM: They are missing out, y'all. And we would love if you pass us along to your creepy cool friends, of course. But we're also sharing shows that we love all month long on Twitter using #trypod. We are @SpiritsPodcast.
JS: Most recently, we're really loving And This Is Why We Drink.
AM: Oh, they’re so good.
JS: It’s two friends, who drink and discuss true crime and paranormal stories, which obviously we love.
AM: It – yeah. Like, between the two of us, we have your whole like spoopy history show genre, while you drink, totally covered.
JS: With ladies.
AM: With ladies. Yehey. Speaking of which, welcome and cheers to our newest patrons. Take a deep breath here. Thank you to Debra, Page, Erin, Abby, Haley, Ellen, Charlotte, Zoe, Karen, Kristina, MCF, Becca, Jackson, and H Gray.
JS: You glorious salmons of knowledge. There are so many of you now.
AM: Oh, we're so happy. And thank you, too, to our cohort of Supporting Producer-level patrons: LeeAnn Davis, Shannon Alford, Phil Fresh, Catherine Addington, Kristina Rogers, and Dorian Schuler-Teachout.
JS: Thank you to each and every one of you patrons for your support and to everyone listening. We are super, super close --
AM: So close.
JS: -- to reaching our new Patreon goal, which would be upgrading our mics. We don't have to sit 16 candles style just chatting anymore.
AM: Sometimes, we may be. Well, just because we miss it. But [Inaudible 1:42]. It would be nice to like be able to sit back against something as we record.
JS: I would – I would miss your face being this close to mine.
AM: Anytime, babe. In fact, though, y'all have supported us so hard, but I can’t help utter a sentence that I have always wanted to say.
JS: It's so cool. Go ahead.
AM: All right, Julia. Thank you to Audible for supporting this episode of Spirits.
JS: Oh, my god, I love that. It sounds so good.
AM: We sound so legit. Audible is offering you, our Spiriters, a 30-day trial and a free audiobook. Just head over to audible.com/spirits to get your free book and to show your support for the show. That's audible.com/spirits.
JS: And stay tuned to hear our book recommendations later on the show.
AM: And that is a wrap. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 30: The Morrigan.
Intro Music
JS: So, Amanda, we're continuing on with our creed from last episode when we did Kali. How can I apply myths to my life?
AM: Yes.
JS: Into it, right?
AM: I am into it, because that's what I do anyway. And we end up kind of talking about it informally in most of our episodes. But this kind of clear like application of, okay, we're gonna learn a dope story and then think about how it applies to us. You know, I love school, and I'm into that.
JS: I know you are. And we got really good responses from our listeners from that. So, I think --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- that's a good way to go.
AM: Love your tweets, y’all. Thank you for this life.
JS: So, Amanda, I was thinking about something that you always say.
AM: Okay. Oh, oh. Hold on.
JS: Let’s --
AM: Let's just think about the possibilities here for a second. My co-worker the other day was like, “Amanda, you say motherfuck a lot.”
JS: Not that one.
AM: And I was like – and I was like I mean I don't – it's not in my self image to curse a bunch, but I do just love the mouthfeel. Not motherfucker.
JS: It's a solid
AM: Motherfuck.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like I just – anyway.
JS: It just ends with a good finality to it.
AM: Yeah. That or like, “Did you remember your scarf?” Those are my two guesses.
JS: Okay. No. One of my favorite phrases that you say is I contain multitudes.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: Yeah. You do always say that, which I really like because I think that it really shows the dimension of a person.
AM: Yes. So, if for context it's a quote from Walt Whitman's masterpiece, Leaves of Grass --
JS: Of course, it is.
AM: Oh, you didn't know that?
JS: No, I didn’t.
AM: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: I was just like, “Wow. This is a thing Amanda says and I dig it.”
AM: Yes. Well, I – I'm sorry. I let the cat out of the bag, but I did not make that up. But, yes, it's a line from Leaves of Grass. I contain multitudes or we contain multitudes, but, however, that context was. That, you know, all of us have good and bad and, you know, evil and pleasure and vices and virtues. And, you know, we're each of us a little universe.
JS: So, we contain multitudes. As human beings, we contain multitudes.
AM: Yes.
JS: But what about groups of goddesses that contain multitudes too?
AM: I mean I would hope so if, if they are from whence we came, you know.
JS: Yeah. So, this week, we're going to talk about the concept of the triple goddess. And we're going to talk about one of my favorite examples, The Morrigan.
AM: I love that. I love all of --
JS: My love to your hometown.
AM: I was – oh, Long Island.
JS: Yeah, Long Island.
AM: Nice. Here is the sound of my Irish whiskey.
JS: Very good.
AM: [Inaudible 4:36] right there?
JS: I love it. Thank you for doing both sides.
AM: I gotta have the stereo there.
JS: I got you. First things first, what is the triple goddess? I kind of want to just break it down really quick because it can kind of be a confusing concept especially for people who aren't familiar with the idea. Fairly simply, it's a group of three deities that are worshipped as one. And it's actually a pretty popular concept with ancient mythology and across all cultures.
AM: So, how does this differ from the Trinity from the Christian Holy Trinity.
JS: I was going to talk about that actually.
AM: Great.
JS: So, the best example I can think of --
AM: Transition.
JS: The best example I can think of actually is the Holy Trinity in Catholicism. Basically, the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one being, but are being identified as different aspects.
AM: And I'm actually surprised that I haven't heard of this outside of the Holy Trinity.
JS: Right.
AM: Because that concept like fuck with us so much when we were kids.
JS: Yes.
AM: We’re like I don't understand how to put these things together. And I haven't come across it in literature or in history. But I'm really curious to know what other examples of it are.
JS: Well, actually, we have kind of talked about another example of this before. Another example we've seen in previous episodes is Persephone.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, in the story, Persephone along with her – Persephone plays the role in the Trinity that she's in of the maiden.
AM: Right.
JS: Demeter.
AM: Walking through the spring, or the, the forest --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and making flowers come up under her feet, et cetera.
JS: And then her mother, Demeter, who is the goddess of agriculture and nature, she plays the mother character. That she's caring, associated with nature, and fertility. And then there's Rhea, who – we've talked about Rhea a little tiny bit. Rhea is the godmother character or the Crone.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: And Rhea is the mother of the – Zeus and Co. basically.
AM: Fascinating.
JS: Yeah.
AM: We’ll have to get there in-depth at some point.
JS: So, this --
AM: But I didn't know Persephone was part of a triple goddess.
JS: Yeah. So, it's interesting because she's usually depicted together with those other two, but is also referred to as an individual that is a part of a greater whole.
AM: I read that.
JS: So, Persephone has plenty of stories on her own.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But is often, during worship in particular, is represented as a group or as an individual, which is just the mother goddess.
AM: That's pretty cool because it also implies like a sense of balance or tranquility. That like, right now, you might be appealing to this part of the Trinity, because that's something you need help with or you want to focus on. But everything is in context, you know, and like working on one part of yourself, right, is like in context of the rest of your life. And, if you need help in one thing, it doesn't mean the rest aren’t going well, you know.
JS: Right.
AM: I kind of like that you, you keep the kind of broader balance in mind.
JS: Yeah. It's kind of nice, right? Good thoughts. Good vibes. So, we're going to talk about the Morrigan now. That's going to be our focus for today.
AM: I know nothing about this creature, but I just love the name.
JS: Yeah. Well, you --
AM: Except for Lost Girl where --
JS: I was gonna say I’ve heard that name before.
AM: -- the Morrigan is like a dope like head of the court.
JS: Right. But, also, in that show, the Morrigan is a title, right?
AM: Yes. Yes.
JS: The Morrigan can be other individuals, but they represent one whole thing.
AM: It's an office. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. Not exactly the same as this, but a certain idea where this is not an individual goddess. This is multiple goddesses acting in different roles.
AM: Let's get into it.
JS: When we're talking about the Morrigan, we're talking about two different things. We're talking about the individual goddess and also the trio of goddesses, who embody battle, strife, and, in some versions of the mythology, fertility.
AM: Okay.
JS: A little background on the Morrigan, her name means Phantom Queen or the Great Queen.
AM: I'm in.
JS: Incidentally – so, the Celtics have this habit of giving flattering names.
AM: I'm so sorry. The Celtics.
JS: Oh, shit.
AM: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. But I just don't want to think about like six foot eight men in green uniforms --
JS: I'm sorry.
AM: -- on the beautiful parquet floor of the Boston whatever arena it's called.
JS: TD Garden.
AM: Tinny?
JS: TD. Like the bank. Everything is named after a bank, Amanda. You know this.
AM: No. Once I stopped working in finance, I just forgot all banks.
JS: That's fair.
AM: They just – they just left my head. It's actually very problematic for my daily life.
JS: Okay. I will say it again. Celtics. Celtics. Celtics.
AM: Celtics. Celtics. Celtics.
JS: Okay. So, the Celtics had this habit of giving flattering names to creatures and gods and goddesses who they feared. So, for example, the fairy folk were, were called the fair folk.
AM: Yes.
JS: Because, you know, they didn't want the fairies to get mad at them --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- and, therefore, like do terrible things or steal their children and stuff.
AM: Yes. Also, pro tip for getting through large family parties of which Irish families, you're probably gonna. Just to compliment the new girlfriend or boyfriend that someone is bringing around --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- when, in fact, you think that they look dumb or that their opinions about politics are wrong.
JS: Yes
AM: Or, that the way that they petted the dog was, was just a little bit inappropriate.
JS: A little aggressive.
AM: Anyway. Yeah. So, it's, it's – you know, it's a trait.
JS: According to the story or source we're talking about, these are either individual goddesses or a group of goddesses. I'm gonna keep saying that because it gets a little confusing.
AM: Okay.
JS: But --
AM: Don't worry. I'll ask questions.
JS: But, but they represent different aspects of the goddess as a whole.
AM: Got it.
JS: Okay. So, I'm going to quickly break down what each of the different goddesses that make up the Morrigan kind of are all about --
AM: Yup.
JS: -- and what stories they have. So, depending on the source, there are about four or five different goddesses that are part of this Trinity that makes up the Morrigan.
AM: I'm already a little bit confused here.
JS: Yes,
AM: Trinity means three.
JS: I know. I know. So, it depends. So, there's usually --
AM: Or, it's like there's three virtues that comprise one goddess. And those virtues can be embodied in, in multiple things.
JS: Well, no. It's more like – kind of things – so, basically, it's a trinity always. So it's always three goddesses making up the Morrigan.
AM: Oh, but it’s like --
JS: But, depending on the source, the names are different. And the aspects are different.
AM: Okay.
JS: Does that make sense?
AM: Make sense. Yeah. Like versions.
JS: Okay. So, the fifth goddess is always the individual Morrigan themselves. So, the whole figure itself.
AM: Got it. Got it. Right.
JS: So, keep that – keep that in mind --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- as we dive into this. We're gonna start first with – I'm gonna not pronounce any of these right. So, let's do this thing. Badb. Badb, B - A - D - B.
AM: Probably Bev or Beiv.
JS: Beiv?
AM: Because B - H is v.
JS: Oh, that's cool. That makes total sense.
AM: Welcome to me trying to learn Irish.
JS: So Badb.
AM: Yeah. I think so.
JS: So like bay with the v.
AM: Yeah.
JS: All right. Badb.
AM: Yeah, Badb. Yeah. Yeah. No. None of the --
JS: I love Badb.
AM: I mean mostly it's because they like – they like force a Latin alphabet upon a language that wasn't, you know, developed that way.
JS: Yes.
AM: And it makes sense, if you're – if you're like really into linguistics and like look at the ways that things are, but it doesn't --
JS: I'm not.
AM: -- make sense versus English, which is the bastard tongue as we all know. Anyway, it's super hard.
JS: Okay.
AM: Irish fam, you know, respect to you.
JS: Fair enough. Okay. So, Badb, the literal translation for her name is crow, which is why the Morrigan is often associated with crows and ravens.
AM: Cool.
JS: She is known as Badb Catha or the battle crow, which is actually a hooded crow. Have you ever seen a picture of a hooded crow?
AM: No
JS: They’re very pretty. So, they have sort of like an off gray – like a dark gray coat and then black like head.
AM: Oh, nice.
JS: Yeah. It's really, really pretty.
AM: I thought you were gonna say something horrifying --
JS: No.
AM: -- like a – like a raven or a crow with like a turkey giblet.
JS: No.
AM: Like that’s – like a --
JS: No, no, no, no.
AM: Like a scaly armor hood.
JS: Nope.
AM: I'm really glad that that doesn't exist.
JS: No. It's very pretty actually.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, they're a carrion bird, which carrion birds are ones that feast on already dead things.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, they would show up around battlefields after the battle is done and kind of eat and peck at the dead bodies.
AM: Make sense.
JS: So, this is why she is associated with a war goddess. So, her MO is basically causing fear and confusion among soldiers, which moves the tide of battle to her favored side.
AM: Oooh.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I like it. Like sowing discord.
JS: Very, very Athenian in the – or just the Trojan War in general --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- where the gods pick sides and would influence the battle.
AM: Definitely. And very much kind of – I've been reading a lot of books on like cybersecurity and hacking recently.
JS: Okay.
AM: And the idea of social engineer like social hacking --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- that's, that's the kind that you can't really defend against. Like getting on the phone and getting someone's information or getting close to them and getting info in that way, you're sort of like using tools that you don't think of as traditional hacking tools to get it done.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Similarly to this, you know, you're using distraction in a way that might not normally be in your arsenal of like go-to battle strategies.
JS: That was an insanely cool tie that you just did there.
AM: Wooh.
JS: I would never put those two things together.
AM: It's not always a Pokemon headcanon folks. Sometimes, it's, it’s the actual --
JS: It's real things.
AM: -- literary connection.
JS: So, the appearance of Badb before a battle, foreshadows exceptional carnage to come or could predict the death of a notable person.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Interestingly, so, usually her prediction of the death of a person would come in the form of wailing, which is why Badb later associated with the banshee.
AM: Oh, yes.
JS: In one story, she takes the form of an ugly hag, who prophesizes the downfall of a notable High King of Ireland. In another story, she takes the form of the washer at the ford. So, side note, because there's a lot of mythology that we haven't talked about in Celtic mythology. So, I kind of want to just kind --
AM: Explain.
JS: -- of address some of the terms.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, the washer at the ford is this type of fairy or spirit who is seen as an omen of death and a messenger for the other world. So, she wanders deserted streams and washes blood off grave clothes of those who are about to die.
AM: Cool. Cool. Cool.
JS: Cool. Cool. Cool. Great. Just nailing it.
AM: I mean I appreciate – you know, the like laundry services the day before you're gonna have to wear that outfit, but like what an image.
JS: There's – yeah. That's such a good image.
AM: Like the blood run – like water running red, you know. Like there’s nothing scarier than that.
JS: I'm, I'm reminded of one of the scenes in Jurassic Park – one of the Jurassics Parks. Now, I can't remember which one it is, but just someone gets eaten in a river and you see the blood run down. I think it’s --
AM: Oh, yeah. No. That's the first appearance of the dinosaur, right, where he like snatched somebody up from the middle of the [Inaudible 14:13].
JS: No, no, no, no, no. It is in the second movie I think. Some dude gets eaten by the Pachys, which are the little tiny dinosaurs who like move in a pack and --
AM: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- demolish them.
AM: Yes.
JS: And he dies on a river. And there's a waterfall. And you see the waterfall turn red.
AM: Fun.
JS: I like that.
AM: Foamy.
JS: Foamy. Yeah, All that foam.
AM: That,that carnal loam.
JS: Oh, god.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Okay. In later stories, they are said to be spirits of women who died giving birth and are doomed to act as these omens until the day that their lives would have normally ended if they hadn't done giving birth. And this is interesting because it's gonna tie to a story of another version of the Morrigan later.
AM: And, and like such cool associations with like the cycle of life, right?
JS: Right.
AM: Like you die bringing someone else into the world. And then your, you know, after life ends when someone else's does. Like it’s fascinating.
JS: I also like the idea of – that is not when your life is supposed to end.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, childbirth.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Dying in childbirth is not the same as getting hit by a – I was gonna say a car, but a cart I guess.
AM: Yeah. You’re getting trampled by a horse.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or, falling down a well --
JS: Right.
AM: -- like every Irish person does at some point apparently.
JS: Or, drowning. Because, apparently, you guys drown when you want to.
AM: Everyone’s uncle drown – drowns. Yeah. Listen, Irish listeners, like, if you were – if a family member of yours didn't drown, I am super happy for you, but please tweet me. Because I'll be really surprised.
JS: At least, someone has to have drowned at some point. So, she's usually dressed in green. She appears as a hag and on --
AM: In green.
JS: Yeah. I don't know why. On some occasions, she's young and beautiful. But there's a weird story about how, if a mortal sucks her breast and claims to be her foster child, they can gain a wish or know the names of people who are chosen to die.
AM: What?
JS: I know. It's really weird.
AM: I mean I don't wanna yuck to get anyone's yum, but I'm just not gonna – I don't wanna – I don't wanna, you know, go into that in particular.
JS: Also, because, when I was reading descriptions of this thing, they made a note to say, “Oh, she has very saggy breasts.” I'm like, “Oh, no. Oh, no. Please don't do that.”
AM: Please don’t show me the future.
JS: Please don't do that. I don't want to talk about that.
AM: That's our – that's our gift as young women. It’s not to have to think particularly specifically about that.
JS: Good.
AM: All right. Yeah.
JS: So, in one of Badb’s most well-known stories, she is the washer at the ford. And she is seen washing the chariot and the harness of an Irish hero, which is an omen for that heroes definite in an upcoming battle.
AM: Yeah, dude. That is pretty cool.
JS: Yeah. She is so associated with the battle that the battlefield is actually known as “the garden of Badb”. And she's regularly depicted as an active participant in warfare. So, not just influencing, but fighting herself,
AM: Like – you know, like wielding the spear or whatever.
JS: So, using magic, she can help incite fear and confusion even summoning and I quote compact clouds of mist and a furious rain of fire. And, so, it allows – her presence allows neither side to be able to rest or stay for three days and three nights.
AM: That reminds me of Kali’s like eternal dance off --
JS: Yes. I'm so into that.
AM: -- where, where, you know, you're like compelled beyond the limits of normal physical ability by divine force, you know, to see the thing out through to its end.
JS: Yeah, if only more battles were epic dance offs
AM: What if one side of the battle could only use – like, like their weapon was just dancing – like dancing in unison to make the ground rattle, and the other team could only wield like compact clouds of mist?
JS: That would be kind of fantastic. I'm super into that.
AM: Speaking of mist, that is all that is left in my drink choice. So, why don't we head over for a refill?
JS: I think so. Let's go.
Music
JS: Spirits is sponsored this week by Audible. You can get a free audiobook and a free 30-day trial at audible.com/spirits.
AM: A lot of you are like, "Oh, I wish Spirits were longer." And that is super flattering, but why not try a dope audio book in the meantime?
JS: Okay. So, I actually downloaded one really recently.
AM: Oh, yeah,
JS: It is one of my favorite books and I kind of want to read – listen to it in audio form, because I'm working on a super secret project right now.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I just need a little inspiration. The book is called, The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet by Becky Chambers. And it is amazing.
AM: It is so good, y'all. I read it in print form, but, now, I have to see it in audiobook form as well here at whatever the verb is. Because it's like diverse characters sort of like firefly, like people in space. Like such a cool rendering of what like a sci-fi space exploration future might be like.
JS: Oh, it's insanely good world building. There's alien species. And you can like just tell that this author puts so much effort into it and so much thought. And the audio book does such a good job portraying that. It's amazing.
AM: Yeah. Female narrator, which is really dope. And, and it's just like – it's just so good. It's just so good. It's so funny. Like, oh, my gosh, I love it so much.
JS: It's like funny and serious at the same time.
AM: And I like that it's about like space, and death, and life, and things.
JS: And I mean – but the great part is there's not too much at stake. Like it doesn't feel like a giant dramable.
AM: Yeah. It doesn't feel like another big book about space exploration, which starts with the end of the Earth. And I'm like, “Oh, okay.
JS: Oh, okay.
AM: This is what we're in for. Anyway. But, if you want a really exciting, you know, lovely, wonderful, humorous, thought-provoking book to read, we recommend "The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet". And you can try this book or any of the zillions of others that Audible has to offer at audible.com/spirits.
JS: We'd really, really love it if you went and signed up to show your support for the show. And to let Audible know that they can return as a sponsor again.
AM: And you must let us know, too, on Twitter and Facebook, what books you end up trying. We're @SpiritsPodcast.
JS: So, thank you, Audible. And, now, we're going to get back to the show.
AM: Bye.
JS: Okay. Let us talk about another aspect of the Morrigan Macha, not the tea.
AM: Oh, okay.
JS: I'm probably pronouncing it wrong, but --
AM: Good enough.
JS: So, there's actually not as much information on this aspect of the Morrigan as there was with Badb. Macha is associated with war horses and sovereignty and is also known as – I'm gonna pronounce this wrong – Grian Banchure.
AM: That is not right whatsoever.
JS: Do you want to do Banchure?
AM: Nope. I got no other guess.
JS: Nope. You got nothing, huh?
AM: Sorry.
JS: All right. It's basically Celtic for --
AM: You did it so right, and then you did it so wrong.
JS: It's okay. It's basically in Celtic for the Sun of Womanfolk.
AM: Okay.
JS: And, sun, like in the sun – in the sky, not child.
AM: Okay. I was gonna say man of woman-borne. Like something that type shit omens.
JS: I'm into it though. So, she's tied to sacred names.
AM: Oh, shit. I didn't even think about that.
JS: What?
AM: Like the trio of witches.
JS: Oh, my god. Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yes.
AM: And like – and like, you know, they're, they're foretelling Macbeth's death. They sort of – they sort of symbolically get him ready for his funeral gear by like giving him the mantle of double fain.
JS: Are the witches from Macbeth the Morrigan? Because, holy shit, that's pretty damn good.
AM: No one's talked that through yet. We have to quick go and get PhDs in dramatic literature.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Then write a doctoral thesis about this.
JS: And then we'll talk.
AM: And do an audio drama.
JS: So, she's tied to the Sacred Names of Ireland and she was the mother of the Ernmas, which are spirits that are associated with or protectors of sacred places in Ireland. They're also a trinity. But --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- we're not going to talk about them at this time.
AM: And just like, anecdotally, there very much is a sense of places have correct ways that they should be. And, and messing with it, is going to just like bring bad stuff upon you.
JS: Yeah,
AM: You know, like my – I've just kind of experienced that with this. Just relatives and things like this is the way that the thing should be. And, if you, you know, break ground on a place that shouldn't be broken or, you know, disrupt hallowed ground or something, there's just like a – I think greater than average sense that something bad is going to come upon you and yours.
JS: That's pretty interesting. That's very Irish.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's pretty Irish. So, talking about Macha again, so, in many stories outside of her affiliation with the Morrigan, she's the wife of a god or – it's kind of confusing. I think he's basically a heroic character --
AM: Okay.
JS: -- and his mortal. But I think, later on, he gets deified. So, it's a man named Nemed, whose name means holy or privileged. And he was the leader of a group of people who came to settle in Ireland, who were eventually named after him; the Nemedians or something. That sounds like something.
AM: Nope. I know nothing. I know nothing.
JS: Okay. So, in some stories, she is a warrior and a queen, who helped her husband overpower their rivals and forced them to build a sacred city in her honor.
AM: Dope.
JS: Into it.
AM: I love that.
JS: Just relationship goals.
AM: I also like – I also identify with like being the – like power half of the power couple or, you know --
JS: Yea. No.
AM: Or, like the person is like, like helping --
JS: Right.
AM: -- helping your partner like achieve their dreams.
JS: Oh, yeah.
AM: Because you can. And I love that it's like the, the female doing that and not the male.
JS: Yes. I'm into that. So, in another story, she's also said to be the wife of a hero named Crunniuc – Crunniuc.
AM: I just don't want to look at the spelling.
JS: Okay.
AM: Because I know that I'm not going to get it.
JS: And, so, he was a mortal and, as a goddess, she warned him not to tell anyone about their love or the fact that she even existed. Of course, he's an asshole. So, he brags about his relationship to the King of Ulster.
AM: Oh, good. Good. Good. Good. Good choice.
JS: That is his wife could outrun the fastest chariot.
AM: Which like adorable. You know, like --
JS: It’s really cute.
AM: -- I'm just – I’m just like picturing the guy be like, “My wife --
JS: No. [Inaudible 23:07].
AM: -- can run faster than any of your chariots.”
JS: So many horses.
AM: Get [Inaudible 23:14] stable boy. Stable, stable boy.
JS: So, Macha, who is hella pregnant at the time – like eight months pregnant at the time. She is forced to appear before the king, who then forces her to run a race against his horses.
AM: Well, speaking death in childbirth, that sounds super smart.
JS: She manages to win even though she's hella pregnant. And she gives birth to her child as soon as she crosses the finish line.
AM: So epic.
JS: And, in her dying pain and anger, she curses --
AM: Oh, she dies?
JS: She curses the king --
AM: Fuck.
JS: -- and his future children for nine and nine generations. So, 81 generations in total.
AM: Whoa.
JS: And that, in their worst peril, they would suffer the pain of childbirth.
AM: That's amazing.
JS: I love that so much.
AM: That's amazing. Because like, you know, unless you give birth to children, you're not going to feel that pain.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It is, from what I hear, pain unlike any other pains. Also, Ulster is like kind of a cursed place in Ireland.
JS: Yeah
AM: That's where the troubles are.
JS: Oh, well, then --
AM: In, in Northern Ireland like the --
JS: It's because they're all feeling that childbirth pain.
AM: Yeah. And, and then I mean there's like all kinds of horrific shit, like car bombings, and like awful – like people get like mutilated by shit. And like there's – not like chemical warfare but like dirty warfare that had, that was happening.
JS: Not great.
AM: So, it's sort of --
JS: So, like on the border of North Ireland and regular Ireland? Is that why?
AM: Yes.
JS: Okay. That makes sense. So, Macha, along with Badb, is associated with birds and is also sometimes known as the Raven.
AM: Huh!
JS: She along with her other Morrigan is identified in instigating battles.
AM: And I mean it makes sense, because she didn't ask for the --
JS: Right.
AM: -- the challenge that ended up claiming her life.
JS: I'm so into the vengeful spirit. We talked about this --
AM: We did.
JS: -- with seductress episode with Melissa.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I looked it up. In most of the stories, her name is still Melissa just for the record.
AM: I just don't buy it. I just don't buy it. Why? Whence? Wherefore?
JS: I don’t know. Two more Morrigans to go. That's a thing. The next one we're going to talk about is Nemain. So, Nemain is the literal personification of the frenzied havoc of war.
AM: Hmm.
JS: The very sight --
AM: Sounds like a great thing to buy a lot and put in the god.
JS: Yeah. Awesome. Totally good. The very sight of her is enough to confound entire armies. And, in stories, friendly troops will fall into mutual slaughter driven mad by her appearance.
AM: Oooh.
JS: It is --
AM: Kind of Kali up in here.
JS: Yeah. I'm into it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, it’s said that she can kill a hundred men with a single battle cry. And I have a quote.
AM: Okay.
JS: The Nemain confused the army; and the four provinces of Eriu dashed themselves against the points of their own spears and weapons, So, that a hundred soldiers died in fear and trembling in the middle of the fort and encampment that night.
AM: Oh, shit.
JS: That's like intense. And I love it.
AM: Yeah. It reminds me of like sirens luring captains to like dash their boat upon the rocks. Yeah.
JS: It's kind of beautiful. And I, I also really like the image of the futility of war in this sense.
AM:Yeah.
JS: Because these people are dying for nothing.
AM: Isn't that what we're doing anyway?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like, if we --
JS: They’re – they’re --
AM: If you zoom out beyond the lens of like the, the warring factions, like, “Is this not a society just eating itself up?”
JS: Yeah. They're just – they're going to die anyway and just the sight of her is that realization. I think that, “Oh, shit. We're probably gonna die anyway.”
AM: Let's just do it now.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Oh, god. That's like really intense.
AM: I, I didn't assume that. I just assumed the kind of like frenzy of, of mixing up the enemy and the self, which like I'm really into that idea of like what is self defeating and, and what do we do that we think is constructive that ends up, you know, causing bad consequences for us. And, and that kind of idea where you kind of transpose the self in the enemy and like – and, so, therefore, it makes sense to do I like auto – the homicide, whatever you call it.
JS: You just made a jerking off motion with your hands in there.
AM: No, I did not.
JS: Yes, you did.
AM: It was – it was the thrusting the spear into emotion.
JS: Okay. But it is multiple times. You look like you are using a shake weight. Okay. Good try though.
AM: It's not going in the podcast.
JS: Oh, yeah, it is. The rest of her story are basically just that, where it's battlefield, she shows up, everyone dies or kills themselves. There's a different theories regarding what her name could mean. So, some theologians believe that, oh, it's – it means to deal out poison, where other ones say it means to seize or take the enemy, which I really like that.
AM: I like both of them. Yeah. Because it's not – it's not like you're not – you're not spreading poison for people to later die.
JS: Right.
AM: You, you like take control of them.
JS: Yeah. I really like that. I mean besides the whole, you know --
AM: Besides the whole murder. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- killing people and stuff. The last one we're going to talk about is --
AM: Our whole podcast has a disclaimer, besides the murder.
JS: Besides the murder and stuff.
AM: Besides the murder and stuff, this would be cool.
JS: Besides the human sacrifice. Besides the murder. Besides the incest.
AM: Besides the incest, it's totally fine, and Greece is totally fucking fine. I said that in conversation the other day.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Someone brought up like ancient Greek gods and like who was whose son. And I was like, "Incest, it's fine. It was fine." I mean just, in context, it makes more sense that it does now.
JS: We had actually someone messaged us on Facebook today. And they're like, "Thank you for always talking about the Greeks and just being like, “Incest is fine.” By the way, we call – when my friends and I talk about it, we call them Brusbands, brother-husbands. I'm like --
AM: So good.
JS: -- so good. I loved it. So good.
AM: Adapted. Love it.
JS: I think her name was Ramona. Thank you, Ramona.
AM: Thank you, Ramona. Also, it makes me think of polygamy, which just has a – has a special place in my heart. And --
JS: I know it has.
AM: Yeah. And not – not very particular. I’m just fascinated with it.
JS: You just really liked Big Love.
AM: I watched Big Love at a formative time. It's Amanda Seyfried and Aaron Paul on screen together --
JS: Into it.
AM: -- making out. It was just like it overwhelm the circuits.
JS: Okay.
AM: Anyway.
JS: So, last --
AM: Brother-husband.
JS: Last Morrigan we're going to talk about is Anann.
AM: Okay.
JS: She's also known as gentle Annie, which is again is one of those terms used to avoid offense.
AM: Yes.
JS: Like we talked about the fairy folk.
AM: I'm gonna guess that she isn't gentle. Ish?
JS: Kinda. So, she's often mixed up with many other Irish goddesses and is known in some stories as the mother of the Irish gods. There's not a lot of information about her. I think it's one of those instances like with the Etruscans, where they transformed into so many things over time --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- that we lose the original translation.
AM: And it probably meant a lot to each person. Like you --
JS: Right.
AM: -- can kind of evoke these like big general ideas of gods. And they're like, “Oh, you know, you evoke St. Patrick for whatever and evoke, you know, this person for that.” And, so, it's hard to kind of get to like a common denominator or a truth of things because every transmission of that is so personal.
JS: Yeah. I feel that. So, some stories actually associate her with peaceful and timely death. So, instead of the violent deaths in the other aspects of the Morrigan.
AM: It's the way it should be.
JS: Yeah. So, not, not as terrible and not throwing yourself onto your spear.
AM: Right.
JS: Just kind of dying peacefully in your sleep.
AM: But, again, like this, this kind of idea of the larger whole or the larger like Morrigan of Morrigans.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I like that, you know, with every unjust death, there is a just death.
JS: Right.
AM: Like, with every person dying tragically, bringing another life into the world. You know, someone like dies with 40 grandchildren happily like in her bed at home. I just think – it's – you know, it's nice to remember that context.
JS: #amultitudeofmorrigan.
AM: Into it.
JS: Okay. So, in one story about the Morrigan, which is usually associated with Anann, it mentions that the goddess lured a bull away from a woman named Odras. Trying to get her bull back --
AM: There are no bulls in Ireland.
JS: Okay. Wait. You don't have cows in Ireland?
AM: Oh, I thought you meant like a --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- running of the bulls.
JS: Yeah. Bulls are just male cows, Amanda. Really?
AM: No. No. No. I know that.
JS: Okay.
AM: I'm trying to think of what creature I was talking about.
JS: You're thinking of bulls with the horns.
AM: No. No. No. I was thinking of the Tauros in Pokemon.
JS: Which is based on a bull.
AM: I know. I was --
JS: Okay. She lures a ball away from this woman named, Odras. Trying to get her bull back, Odras follows the Morrigan into the other world. Don't do that. Don't ever do that.
AM: Not worth it.
JS: When Odras falls asleep, the Morrigan turns her into a pool of water.
AM: Okay.
JS: And there's a couple of other stories referencing her with cattle, which also brings back the suggestion that the Morrigan is tied to Earth, fertility, and sovereignty, which is what connects your back to Macha.
AM: Huh!
JS: That idea of conquered land becomes your land.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah.
AM: There's a lot there. And I, on the one hand, like that's not a horrible death to be turned into pot – a pool of water
JS: Yeah, It's very Greek actually.
AM: Yeah. But also like, you know, no trace that you were there and no way to like find your body and to honor it. No place to go. You know, to like to --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- you know, pay respects afterward, which is – which is really big. However, I don't know. It's kind of nice.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Returned to the cycle.
JS: It’s kind of chill. It's supposed to – I think it leads into the River Shannon too.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's like the pool that feeds the River Shannon, which I like. That's adorable.
AM: Nice. Nice.
JS: It's life giving, which is, you know, not the worst death in the world.
AM: My family's from Carrick on Shannon.
JS: Okay. Nice.
AM: It's just a nice name.
JS: I like that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Very pretty. Okay. So, applying the Morrigan to ourselves, what do you think? I think, when we're talking about the Morrigan, we're talking about this idea that we can have this sort of angry embodiment of fury, and chaos, and havoc. And, sometimes, that can be super overwhelming. But, at the same time, we can have this sort of gentleness and control in ourselves. And it balances out just fine. We don't have to always be feared. We can always – we could also give, you know, beautiful, timely death or we can, you know, represent this land.
AM: That chaos isn't the only option. Right.
JS: Yes. Chaos isn't the only option.
AM: And I, I like the idea of naming and knowing your demons. Instead of just turning away from all the things that are unpredictable, and scary, and horrible about the world, you know, you give them a nickname. And you find a way to try to placate them, or to live with them, or to put them in a context that makes them bearable for yourself. You know, like dying in childbirth is like, you know, one of the most tragic things --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- that can occur. And, so, instead of just not dealing with it, you can – you know, you can honor it in a way and know it in a way by giving it a name, representing it alongside peaceful death and battle death, and just trying to – I don't know – know, know the thing through context and make it a little bit less scary. Lessen its power over you --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- by, by deeming to face it.
JS: Of course, I like the idea that this is a person or a group that contains so many layers. It contains so many beautiful – the beautiful is alongside with the horrible. And I think, as human beings, that's what we're all about. You know, we can't – we can't always just be perfect, and thoughtful, and wonderful. Sometimes, we have these bad moments where we're angry and we hurt. And you have to kind of understand that, if someone's being rude to you, when they're reading usually your friend or they're usually, you know, someone you care about, it's because they can't be perfect and they can't be beautiful all the time.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's just how it is.
AM: The like – the wheel of fortune that is the, the, the Morrigan Trinity. You know, it's clicked over one you know.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, so, like, like the chaoses has taken over for the day. And then that's, that's what the future is as well, right? It's like unbridled possibility; the good, the horrible, the tragic, the amazing, you know. And, and it's, it's almost like I picture the Trinity always as a kind of like glowing and pulsating triangle.
JS: Yes.
AM: With like, something can kind of pop up like almost like a magic eight ball. You know, we're like, It's here. It's just kind of opaque with like, beautiful color and glitter and things in it at all times. And then whenever, you know, something has to be summoned up it kind of like comes up, bobs up to the surface, and then goes back down. And that's also how I kind of picture the future of like lots of – lots of possibilities; good and bad. Aand maybe they'll happen, maybe none will. But knowing that, you know, everything exists alongside other possibilities, that, when things are going well, they could have gone badly and, when things are going badly, maybe they'll go well one day or that they're going well for someone else. You know, I don't know. It’s just it makes everything seem a little less out of my control.
JS: And I guess that's the best we can ask for you know.
AM: Hooded crows though, that would be pretty horrifying.
JS: Yeah. So, thank you guys for listening and stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil